tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post3571064378689486470..comments2024-03-17T09:17:01.454+00:00Comments on Vic the Vicar!: Andrew Brown on New AtheismVic Van Den Berghhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09581156515370131898noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-89457028376732746072013-03-25T14:04:34.340+00:002013-03-25T14:04:34.340+00:00We can count states that do this for religious or ...We can count states that do this for religious or atheistic purposes. I could mention flogging or stoning for adultery by theistic states.<br /><br />But I am not talking about states.<br /><br />Can you find me an example of an atheistic organisation like the Army of God.<br /><br />Surely you can see a difference between a government making a statement like "All people that believe X will be killed" and the people living and working there going along with it and organisations created for the function of killing in the name of God?<br /><br />We can discuss state sponsored discrimination later. You have a point about Albania but government level murder is a different kettle of fish.Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-3298124857668019552013-03-25T00:24:29.774+00:002013-03-25T00:24:29.774+00:00What is obvious is the fact (and I wish I could un...What is obvious is the fact (and I wish I could underline that word) that those thinking people who believe, whether it be as theists or atheists, must stand against any, and all, wrong acts and oppose those who commit them - regardless of dogma, doctrine or (un)belief.<br /><br />Oddly, those who neither believe not disbelieve appear to see the two extremes as equally annoying!<br /><br />No need to fall out or become entrenched (after all people assumed that science background meant I wouldn't have a faith and look what happened to me :-). )<br /><br />PaxVic Van Den Berghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581156515370131898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-46295787427926800372013-03-24T23:53:07.563+00:002013-03-24T23:53:07.563+00:00Oh dear, I thought that we had at least been getti...Oh dear, I thought that we had at least been getting some mutual understanding.<br /><br />Who has tried to equate Dawkins' pronouncements with young girls being shot - for Any reason? I am going to struggle to take you seriously if you try to suggest that anyone here would take anyone else seriously if they claimed those two things were in any way equivalent. And the reverse is true - Westboro Baptist church, vile as they may be, don't go in for murder.<br /><br />I will once again say that, if you suggest that it is in some way less bad to be shot by a bullet fired in the name of communism of some other ideology, or blown up by a bomb planted in the name of that ideology, that to be shot or blown up in the name of religion, then you are being insulting to the memory of many, many people. But let us take the case of Albania, which I know a bit about as some friends spent some time as teachers there (with the church) in the mid 90's.<br />In 1967, Albania declared itself the world's first atheist state. Or look at article 37 of the 1976 constitution here:<br /><br />http://bjoerna.dk/dokumentation/Albanian-Constitution-1976.htm#C.%20Education,%20Science,%20Culture<br /><br />For Hoxha, Eradication of religion was central, and brutal.<br />This is a Catholic source, and whilst I have little or no interest in beatification, it makes grim reading:<br /><br />http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/beatification-process-begins-for-albanian-martyrs<br /><br />From the dating system quoted, I doubt that this is a religious source, yet rates Hoxha's victims in the thousands:<br /><br />http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hoxha.html<br /><br />and here is another Catholic source:<br /><br />http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/3rd-september-1954/8/aged-bishop-tortured-and-killed<br /><br />It is suggested that, by the end of communist rule, there were fewer than 100 Orthodox and Catholic priests left alive in the country, though many had fled, not been killed.<br /><br />And don't try and argue that the communists gave it up voluntarily. Alia was just as enthusiastic as Hoxha, until Gorbachev withdrew his protection, and they saw what happened to Ceausescu in Romania, with a similar popular uprising developing locally. My friend was interviewed on Radio 4's Today programme from the deck on an Italian warship on which they were being evacuated after the hard-liners had an abortive attempt at regaining power.<br /><br />So please don't try to imply that the victims of mass murder done in the name of atheism or any other secular ideology are somehow luckier than the victims of religiously motivated mass murder. If you continue to try and argue that, or that atheists are not just as capable of using atheism to justify brutal actions, then you are only showing yourself to be just as hidebound by dogma as any religious fundamentalist.<br /><br />I had hoped, and thought, that that was not the case. But if so, then there is little point in me contributing more to this exchange.DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-12957156400289923852013-03-24T17:51:24.484+00:002013-03-24T17:51:24.484+00:00Sorry, Vic, this has been brewing for a while. You...Sorry, Vic, this has been brewing for a while. You lot just happened to be standing in your way.<br /><br />I do get tired sometimes when told that fundamentalist atheists are just as bad as fundamentalist believers.<br /><br />Young girls being shot because they want an education which some religious people think women shouls not be allowed due to religious law is not in the same league as Dawkins saying "Religious people are stupid."Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-43750484241701236192013-03-24T17:33:32.818+00:002013-03-24T17:33:32.818+00:00Confused?
Well I am now - where did that come fro...Confused?<br /><br />Well I am now - where did that come from ?<br /><br />Happy Sinday all :-)Vic Van Den Berghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581156515370131898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-90855151947250822762013-03-24T16:32:04.946+00:002013-03-24T16:32:04.946+00:00This is the sort of thing I mean. There is from an...This is the sort of thing I mean. There is from an organisation called the Army of God. They will kill people to prevent abortions.<br /><br />There is the Westboro church too, of course. <br /><br />There are the many Islamist groups that kill for Allah.<br /><br />If I had a few moments I could find many such groups. You <i>all</i> know this.<br /><br />Find me an equivalent atheist organisation operating today.<br /><br />If you can't, stop saying that extreme atheists are as bad as extreme believers.Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-13708482591794325132013-03-21T16:28:47.970+00:002013-03-21T16:28:47.970+00:00PS - Fil, I commend your courage in coming to such...PS - Fil, I commend your courage in coming to such a forum. I hope that we have not given in to the temptation (sorry, just can't escape that sort of terminology!) to jump down your throat with our point of view. I read a recent comment that God calls us to be witnesses, not lawyers, but it is hard to remember that sometimes....DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-86840992310358642302013-03-21T13:02:20.028+00:002013-03-21T13:02:20.028+00:00Cheers, Fil. I generally appreciate a good, reason...Cheers, Fil. I generally appreciate a good, reasoned debate. If nothing else, it forces me to examine my own beliefs, and sometimes to adjust them, I hope.<br /><br />Much as I think that I have found something immensely valuable that it would benefit you, and everyone else to find too, I also don't believe that I will ever persuade anyone of the truth of it by pure reason. Broadly, I think that reason can argue a reasonably internally consistent theistic worldview, and an equally consistent purely materialistic view, the point of decision is where faith comes in, somewhat as described in Hebrews 11. But I also believe that there is a leap of faith involved, but generally unrecognised, in accepting the naturalistic, science-based view, that there is nothing extra to, outside, nature. I do not believe that such a metaphysical question can be answered by, or from within, science itself.<br />But I hope that I can honestly say that I have respect for those who have carefully chosen that option.. Where I struggle is with those who have taken the lazy route which so often boils down to the circular argument of taking the assumption that there is nothing more than nature as the proof of that assumption, and furthermore that those who choose differently are a suitable source of ridicule (and worse - though of course much the same can apply to the religious fundamentalists). And I think that it is this group who are being described in the article Vic originally linked to.<br /><br />As for us, I wonder if this small part of the debate has run its course (though always happy to be proved wrong!) If so, I wish you well!DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-3818899076161466542013-03-20T16:01:29.584+00:002013-03-20T16:01:29.584+00:00Thanks to you too Fil.
The argument about a good ...Thanks to you too Fil.<br /><br />The argument about a good God letting bad things happen is always a good one, and revolves around free will. <br /><br />For me the interesting part of this argument is whether God CAN do evil, and can hate?<br /><br />Many of my fellow Christians will baulk at this, but I believe it is within God's capacity to both hate and do evil. I believe that he does neither because he CHOOSES not to.<br /><br />Consider: God gives mankind (that includes women and children) the gift of free will; the ability to reject him, if they choose - what an act of love! If we are made in his image, then he must have that same freedom to choose. Indeed, if God can do nothing but love, then isn't his love worthless? That value in love is surely in the act of will that accompanies it; we are talking here of a conscious sense of affection, tenderness and desire to care for another, not romantic or sexual feelings. <br /><br />Likewise, If God has no choice but to do good, then how can he identify with fallible humans? How can Christ have experienced temptation, unlesss he had the ablility to choose to do wrong?<br /><br />The question of free will, then, is not a cop out but integral to creation because it is part of the creator. Soup Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-24206280001555527182013-03-20T12:58:38.117+00:002013-03-20T12:58:38.117+00:00You're right, the comment about bashing childr...You're right, the comment about bashing children against rocks is in the OT. Jesus didn't say it.<br /><br />My apologies for not Googling that one first. <br /><br />It seems, though, that this conversation cannot proceed any further without going into the old "God can't be all Good if he lets bad things happen" argument that is pointless.<br /><br />Thank you for all your comments Soup D and Dr J.; though it may not seem like it I have read and taken your words on board. You've both made some well put, intelligent comments.Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-65604951789970494222013-03-19T14:53:30.995+00:002013-03-19T14:53:30.995+00:00Like DrJ, I am struggling to find any reference to...Like DrJ, I am struggling to find any reference to Jesus talking about bashing children's heads against rocks - can you provide a reference? Perhaps you are thinking of an Old Testament prophet warning the Israelites about the coming atrocities at the hands of the Assyrians or Babylonians?<br /><br />Unbelievers and Atheists love to return to the genocides in the OT, but there is a question of context here. The land that the Israelites were returning to was originally theirs (part of the promise to Abraham). They left it when they went to Egypt during the famine, in the time of Joseph. They became a slave race in Egypt until the were released at the time of Passover (the ten plagues, parting of the Red Sea etc) At that time, they returned to their ancestral home, which was now resettled by other tribes and nations. <br /><br />The Ancient Canaanite tribes were not a pleasant bunch, but were war-like and prone to some 'detestable practices' such as child sacrifice. They were not going to sit back and let the Israelites walk in and settle in their land. Had the Israelites left any living witnesses, then those survivors would have been bound to avenge their dead, leading to a blood feud, resulting many more lives lost. The retribution of the Canaanites would have been far more terrible than the swift death they received at the hands of the Israelites.<br /><br />It is easy to sit with our 21st-century morality and condemn; but it was simply a matter of life or death:kill or be killed; wipe out the Canaanites or be wiped out themselves. Proponents of 'survival of the fittest' must surely have some understanding of this ? ;) Unfortunately, there is a lack of teaching and understanding within some sections of the Christian world (as well as the secular world) that take these events as a caveat to commit similar acts against those they perceve to be 'enemies'. They completely miss the context of this history. <br /><br />As for Islam, I am aware that there are two forms of Jihad: the lesser and the greater. The lesser Jihad is that with which most people are acquainted: the struggle against the infidel or unbeliever. The greater Jihad is the struggle with self; to become<br />a better person, more fitting of the title "Muslim'. Just like in Christianity (or any philosophical system including atheism) there are those who take sections of teaching and misapply it by an over-emphasis of that which suits their cause.<br /><br />It is simply untrue to limit this disposition to religion - and in particular Islam and Christianity. Nazi-ism taught that all non-arians were sub-human and therefore not afforded the same considerations as others. This was not based on religion. <br /><br />There are those in all walks of life who will twist and pervert any teaching to justify their cause or aims. It is not the teaching that is at fault but the application - and that is down to the individual. Haters will hate and will find a way to defend themselves; but orthodox Christianity teaches love, tolerance and defence of the weak. <br /><br />I appreciate that you are trying to understand the mindset of a small number of 'religious fanatics'; I am not one and therefore canot help you in this quest because I don't understand them either! :)<br />Soup Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-8448851645630342602013-03-19T13:39:22.166+00:002013-03-19T13:39:22.166+00:00'While on the subject of Buddhists I assume th...'While on the subject of Buddhists I assume that you know of the ones that burned themselves in protest about the Vietnam war because their religion has the precept that no life should be harmed.'<br /><br />Except their own, it seems! Just shows that anyone can twist a precept to illogical outcomes. I hardly think you can argue that that is only true in religion! Just read a tabloid :)Soup Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-92041837119369332022013-03-19T13:38:59.107+00:002013-03-19T13:38:59.107+00:00'While on the subject of Buddhists I assume th...'While on the subject of Buddhists I assume that you know of the ones that burned themselves in protest about the Vietnam war because their religion has the precept that no life should be harmed.'<br /><br />Except their own, it seems! Just shows that anyone can twist a precept to illogical outcomes. I hardly think you can argue that that is only true in religion! Just read a tabloid :)Soup Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-64998504919339754182013-03-19T13:34:47.226+00:002013-03-19T13:34:47.226+00:00"I would rather ask whether you think that Ba..."I would rather ask whether you think that Bad Things done by (or 'in the name of') science (or at least by science's bastard and oft-disowned offspring, technology) discredit science in the same way that bad things done by those claiming a religious justification discredit God?"<br /><br /><br />Thanks Dr J. I think the comment above summarises your thoughts on my opinions. I don't think that those claiming a religion and doing bad things discredit God. I am not saying that these people have <i>any</i> bearing on how other people choose to live their lives.<br /><br />I'm trying to make a distinction of that minority of people that do bad things in the name of God alone to get to the point where their psychology can be considered.<br /><br />The people that do shoot doctors because they provide abortions, for example, must think that what they are doing is right in the name of God. They must be using the Bible in such a way to justify their actions.<br /><br />How can they do that? I spoke of the tree bearing fruit and Soup D pointed me in the direction of Galatians 5 to back that up.<br /><br />These murderers must think that their actions are producing good fruit. In what way is this possible?Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-41991159087759095192013-03-19T00:41:54.397+00:002013-03-19T00:41:54.397+00:00Fil - what else? You say:
" It is said that ...Fil - what else? You say:<br /><br />" It is said that religious people have a problem with the question of evil.."<br /><br />I don't have a problem with evil, not in the sense that it threatens or makes me doubt my faith. What puzzles me is when an atheist gets worked up about evil, even if they avoid using that actual word, when the acts they decry are, from their world view, only the acting out of natural selection or selfish genes. Never mind you dying to save two siblings, if I kill you And your siblings there would be more food for my kids to eat. But if, in a situation of famine, I suggested that as a solution to the problem, I suspect that you might suggest that it was not "fair", or possible downright evil if I were to try it. Where on earth does any notion of fair come from in evolutionary terms? Tough luck, buster, my Big Stick is bigger than yours.<br /><br />"The people that say we are only a form of animals do not say that people should die in the name of that idea."<br />I can't offhand think of any definite killings, but there are certainly animal rights activists who have advocated killing, and others who have commited acts of sabotage which could easily have led to deaths (cutting car brake hoses, IIRC, for one).<br /><br />What else. I will accept your inclusion of Westboro Baptist Church as in any way representative of Christianity on one condition: That you will equally accept non-doctor Gillian McKeith as representative of science. Deal? No? Of course, Fred Phelps and co are wrong in their theology - God does not hate fags, God so loved the world etc, even Fred Phelps, which I must say is more than I can manage.<br /><br />Finally, I have tried to find anything like your claim of Jesus talking about bashing childrens' brains on rocks, and can't think of anything. Is this one of those "everybody knows that the Bible says x" times, when in fact it says no such thing, or something that uses the same words, but not necessarily in the same order?DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-47530088167801304112013-03-18T23:55:29.635+00:002013-03-18T23:55:29.635+00:00Part 2:
We could, of course, also have a discussi...Part 2:<br /><br />We could, of course, also have a discussion about whether religion is what God wants from us, or what we do in the mistaken belief that we can put God in our debt, which makes any attempt to defend religions somewhat problematical for me anyway - but explains why I chuckle when I hear Prof Dawkins on the radio attacking religion in terms deliciously similar to those that the Bible records for Jesus and John the Baptist attacking the religious heirarchy of 1st century Palestine.<br /><br />But I would rather ask whether you think that Bad Things done by (or 'in the name of') science (or at least by science's bastard and oft-disowned offspring, technology) discredit science in the same way that bad things done by those claiming a religious justification discredit God? Take Bhopal and Union Carbide as an example, estimates of deaths (to say nothing of the awful chronic health damage for the survivors) vary wildly, but certainly are many times the death toll for 9-11 and all abortion clinic attacks put together.<br />A couple of years ago, the new President of the Royal Society, geneticist and Nobel Laureate Paul Nurse presented an episode of Horizon, "Science Under Attack", asking "why public trust in key scientific theories has been eroded", in particular talking about scepticism about climate change and humanities involvement in it. All very reasonable, but he never once acknowledged that the mainstream scientific view is that man-made climate change is a result of our use of the technological fruits of scientific advances. Science was presented as a source of solutions - I was reminded of the old limerick:<br />There was a young lady from Leeds<br />Who was constantly doing Good Deeds.<br />When she bit her young brother,<br />She said to her Mother:<br />"I'll bind up the wound if it bleeds."<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I am a scientist, I love science for the fascination it brings me as well as for the good things it can do. But are you prepared to cut religion the same slack, when some of its proponents do bad things, as so many want to allow science when its proponents do, or unleash, bad things? I hope that you are not going to do any special pleading for science here!DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-67243477890627535052013-03-18T23:52:58.809+00:002013-03-18T23:52:58.809+00:00Fil - I've been busy, so going back a few comm...Fil - I've been busy, so going back a few comments here.<br /><br />I think that you are getting rather hung up on somewhat academic distinctions of what "in the name of" means. Maybe people do not kill or die in the name of atheism, but that is partly because they don't define themselves by their lack of belief in God - but they kill in the name of a political ideology that is opposed to religion. Certainly I think that your distinctions would be lost on someone who died in the purges of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and many more, just as much as those who died in the crusades or on 9-11.<br />Of course, claiming to do something "in the name of" some cause or other does not mean that your actions are approved of by other followers of that cause. Once again, I can go to Matthew's gospel, Ch7 vs 21-23:<br />"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"<br /><br />How does one define the term "Christian"? Self-proclamation clearly isn't enough. If I told you that I was a teapot, you would probably disbelieve me, unless you noted that I was spherical, had a handle and a spout, and could cope with having boiling water poured in me without screaming. So why do you take at face value the claims of people to be Christians without checking them against the source documents? And even then, the fact that real Christians do things that they should not is not simply hardly news, it is an inextricable part of the entire concept - "It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick" (that chap Jesus again, recorded by Matthew again!)<br /><br />bother, too long, got to split it here.DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-49520719350341773302013-03-18T19:52:52.072+00:002013-03-18T19:52:52.072+00:00I don't think so. While on the subject of Budd...I don't think so. While on the subject of Buddhists I assume that you know of the ones that burned themselves in protest about the Vietnam war because their religion has the precept that no life should be harmed.<br /><br />The religions that kill in the name of God seem to be Christianity and Islam.<br /><br />There seems to be something in these faiths that makes people do these things. A minority, I know, but in Islam I am aware of the call to holy war (although, allegedly, the Qu'ran only says that this should be done to protect ones homeland and only soldiers should be killed).<br /><br />Obviously there is the genocide of Joshua in the Bible, and Jesus talks about it being better to bash childrens' heads against a rock than let them live through the end times but these things don't seem to be a general call to arms.<br /><br />The people that kill, they must justify it to themselves and it is only by seeing things through the eyes of these people that we can ever hope to deal with them at a level that they will understand.<br />Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-58691920940565087052013-03-18T14:47:40.267+00:002013-03-18T14:47:40.267+00:00I'm afraid I can't get inside their heads ...I'm afraid I can't get inside their heads to answer that.<br /><br />As for Paul preaching Buddhism, don't think it had reached 1st century Palestine :) There were other religions around, but Paul was a thoroughbred Jew!<br /><br />You do make an interesting point though: if proponents of the same 'religion' can have such differing views and attitudes, is it religion that causes the problem? Would those people have the same attitudes anyway, and just find another way to justify them without religion?Soup Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-34144543699315118062013-03-17T22:46:04.834+00:002013-03-17T22:46:04.834+00:00That sounds like Paul was preaching about Buddhism...That sounds like Paul was preaching about Buddhism. Those are the fruits of the Four Noble Truths.<br /><br />What would one of these people that commit these crimes say to that?<br /><br />I don't know, but they must self justify their actions as being in line with Biblical teachings in some form.<br /><br />How can these people do what they do and still say they are following the Bible?<br /><br />What is going on inside their heads?Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-56730708046623611632013-03-17T20:48:45.958+00:002013-03-17T20:48:45.958+00:00You have to add to the Matthew reference a quote f...You have to add to the Matthew reference a quote from Galatians 5:<br /><br />But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.<br /><br />Are the groups you mention exhibiting these? <br /><br />Soup Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-12784134220474500202013-03-16T20:30:50.793+00:002013-03-16T20:30:50.793+00:00Truly, Soup D, that is wonderful. I know that fait...Truly, Soup D, that is wonderful. I know that faith has helped so many people. As a member of the Atheist Conspiracy(tm) I am obliged to say that I've also heard of faith hurting people (including direct - not just Facebook - friends)too but making that poiny is a contractual obligation which isn't worth going into further here.<br /><br />With the 'deluded' people, how is it possible to tell the difference between a deluded believer and a non-deluded believer?<br /><br />Obviously, the killers have deluded beliefs, but are there other beliefs that are deluded that don't lead to killing?<br /><br />In the spirit of Holiday Showdown, we can find two opposing groups of believers such as Westboro Baptist church and the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement. <br /><br />Which of these is deluded? Possibly both? How can we tell which is the deluded one?<br /><br />I've been thinking about this and the verse from Matthew (I know it's Matthew because of Google ;-) ):<br /><br />By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.<br /><br />These people that are deluded, they think that they are bearing good fruit. How can we tell which is which?Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-34619654660644582322013-03-16T17:11:15.646+00:002013-03-16T17:11:15.646+00:00They think they are right because they are deluded...They think they are right because they are deluded or misinformed.<br /><br />But I've just spent the day with a wonderful group of people, learning, talking and praying and watching God make a very positive difference in their lives... so I'm happy, joyful and thankful. Soup Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-69187989809536743242013-03-15T22:23:33.195+00:002013-03-15T22:23:33.195+00:00Who's that trip trapping over my paradigm?
I&...Who's that trip trapping over my paradigm?<br /><br />I'm not trying to wind people up, and I am <i>not</i> trying to claim any moral high ground.<br /><br />Vic is right, I am merely stating my beliefs.<br /><br />The people that say we are only a form of animals do not say that people should die in the name of that idea.<br /><br />A tiny minority of the people that say each one of us is a sacred life actually take that life in the name of that belief.<br /><br />What is going on there?<br /><br />For that minority of people, how can that be justified?<br /><br />In the same way that, though you think my views are illogical and badly formed, I think they are perfectly logical. Each of us thinks our own views are self consistent.<br /><br />The minority that kill in the name of belief think their views are self consistent and right.<br /><br />How is that possible?Filnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5366621735995057721.post-68407086520496128852013-03-15T14:49:18.174+00:002013-03-15T14:49:18.174+00:00He's neither - merely stating his beliefs and ...He's neither - merely stating his beliefs and setting his own parameters.<br /><br />(Of course whilst watching and assimilating the material before me I wonder if I too might set my own Term of Reference (ToRs) for my engagement.<br /><br />Play nice, try to apply reasoned logic and (regardless of position, belief or prejudice) remember that God (or if it suits your (un)belief structure that the gods, the great Pumpkin in the Sky or the faeries) love you :-)Vic Van Den Berghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581156515370131898noreply@blogger.com