Hello Vicar, "I've sort of lost my doubt!"

In conversation with an atheist acquaintance I was surprised to hear them say that they'd become an agnostic, no longer being sure that God (or gods perhaps) did not exist. Feeling just the beginnings of that ever present sin, pride, at my part in influencing them, I found myself brought back to the earth with a bump! The reason for this was their attributing this new found state to Richard Dawkins book 'The God Delusion'

"The more the book attacked the beliefs, the more I considered them and found something coherent and consistent and this has got me thinking and I'm not so sure there's not something I haven't wanted to notice before."

We'd spoken on a few occasions about the many 'nice' Christians they'd encountered and seen them merely constrained to the 'mad but nice' bin; people who lived in the world of 'I want it to be' who pinned their hopes on someone whom, having been invented to salve their needs, lived their lives of belief in that same person.

The burden of proof is whose I wonder - Is it on the part of the believer or the doubter? That's the question isn't it?

You can't see gravity and yet let go of something and the effect of gravity is immediately obvious and gravity's existence is confirmed.

You can't see God either and yet let go of Him and what is the observable effect?  Is their an empirical test? Can we remove God from the equation and see some difference or add Him to the mix and find a precipitate in the test tube of faith or a 'pop' as the dying splint of faith reignites in the substance of God?

This is going to be a interesting journey indeed - thank you Mr D :-)

Nominal Christians - Nominal Atheists

I often find myself reflecting upon the fact that I meet so many nominal Christians; you know the sort I'm sure - they're the people who might have been baptised but have never 'done' church in any shape, size or form.

I also meet a number of Atheists and find that whilst some will say they are 'Agnostic' the majority merely state that they are 'Atheists' and it is in this that I can find much humour and even more for me to take comfort in. The reasons for this are not mocking any of the groups but are rational and real (so the skeptics, agnostics and atheists can take joy too!) so I know I'm a crowd-pleaser today! ;-)

1. Some I meet are 'proper' atheists in that they have denied God (or gods) and have studied and formed a deep and (in their mind) rational and yet closed system to support their views. Some are willing to dialogue on level playing fields and engage in two-way street stuff, but this is (rather sadly) the exception to the breed. They are not only atheists but are also people with no religion and no beliefs in anything but the material and absolute.

2. Other I meet claim to be atheists but this is actually nothing more than a 'catch all' label to collect up their 'there is no god' stance and if there were perhaps a little more informed, or perhaps a little less lazy, would declare themselves to be merely 'agnostic'. These are the nominal atheists who hold beliefs in an eternity and life after death (but with who and why and what for?) and cling to some of the stuff that supports (and demands) a deity; the people who are rather 'just confused' and living under a flag of convenience. Perhaps best called 'syncretic unbelievers'!

3. The third group are people who are unhappy at being labelled 'atheist'; they are merely people who don't believe in a god. These people take the (most un-atheist like) position of 'whatever floats your boat!' 'You want to believe in a Creator God? That's fine as long as you don't expect me to have to do it too! You want to believe that there's nothing? Then for you there probably is, but don't try to drag me into your ways of thinking either!' The feel as aggrieved by fundamentalism whether it be theist or atheist (there's a cartoon on the blog about that from last month

4. I do meet some who make up a fourth (minority) group and these are true agnostics - they don't believe and want to wear the 'agnostic' badge with the subtext - 'so talk to me - I'm open either way!'

Now the interesting thing for me is that every now and then a nominal Christian, someone who has never had a church affiliation or been a member or can even tell you the stories, talk about Jesus and the like, comes to faith as an 'Atheist'. The 'no god' community tend to parade these people and yet, upon the most cursory of discussions it become clear that they are like a friend of mine who joined a political party a few years back so that they could resign their membership to make a point. Loads of gesture and yet no substance. The don't have a convert, they merely have a new member!

And the good news for me is that when I find a 'proper Atheist' coming to faith I find someone who has read, dialogued (and yet rarely openly discussed) and made a firm and conscious decision to take up that stance, putting it all aside to embrace the concept (and then for them the reality too) of their being a God! Now this is what the other side of the debate claim for every nominal and yet for the ersatz atheists and many of the agnostics too, this is not a defection but a taking up of belief (and when it happens the other way - and it does do that - the same applies too).

The good news is that I find more 'full on' atheists being convinced in our direction that I do the other way round and those I do meet who have become non-theists have rarely been theists- they just happened to be born in the UK and were baptised (or often these days not) and wore the nominal badge because they weren't Islamic, or Hindu or any of the other faiths. The 'Christian' was like a string of garlic to protect from other gods and labels!

So take heart: The many 'no faith' types are merely waiting to hear the good news from the Church or waiting to be convinced by the New Atheists and their disciples. The invitation is made, the challenge for people hearts and minds // minds and hearts is before us.

Who you gonna call?

What you gonna do?

Who are you going to affirm of deny today?

So many non-Atheistic Atheists

Interesting conversation with chap who notice that my book was concerned with the issue of atheism.

'I'm an Atheist,' said he and then went on to explain the reasons why he disagreed with my views (which he hadn't actually asked for or heard, he'd merely assumed the dogcollar meant what he assumed to be was what he assumed it to be!).

As is often the case, he threw in the fact that he believed in faeries and the like because that explained the odd happenings in his home. 'Could be Poltergeists,' said I (helpfully); and amazingly he agreed!! So I continued:

'So you're not really an Atheist at all! You can't be because you believe in the existence of the supernatural and in beings that have less credibility than Jesus, who is (after all) a person of historical substance.'

His response was that he could, 'Believe in the supernatural and maintain his belief that there is no God without conflict!'

So I asked him to define supernatural realms where mischievous spirits (of faeries) could exist and yet god, any god, couldn't (and explain the 'why,how, what' and the like to support it).

Taking up his coat he merely said, 'I don't choose to believe and that, for me is enough!' And with was vanished into Rugby!

Totally agree :-)

So farewell 'Agnostic of Rugby' (or should that be confused?) - thank you for the dialogue, distraction and company.

May God (who I'm sure does exist) bless you as you continue life's journey :-)