The title of this entry relates to something I've said regarding the Jehovah's Witnesses and the fact that I said I didn't think they were Christian, I received this challenging (and most excellent) comment:
'I'm confused Vic; they seem to think they are?'
Indeed they do, or at least they want others to think that they are, but using the name Jesus in a different context to that which is considered to be orthodox doesn't make you Christian and more than using Man U as a focus for ridicule makes you their supporter. But the 'Christian' claim adds, or at least attempts to add, some integrity and implicit value to a bunch of (albeit nice) people who are not, as I understand it actually Christian.
I used to have a number of friends who talked of the bloke who started the thing off some 150 years hence and was quite impressed by some of their stuff, it all started to go wrong when I read about him flooding 'miracle wheat' what wasn't- in fact it was a bit of a scam and, if I recall correctly, he was found guilty of being just a bit dodgy!
But let's no dwell in ad hominem but look at what they believe - and here it might help if we had a look at the Creed, for this is surely a benchmark document. Here we find that the Witnesses focus entirely on Jehovah (the name sort of gives it away) - just one God (without the other two persons of the Trinity) and I have a recollection somewhere that Jesus and the archangel Michael are viewed as being one and he same. I also recall a quite interesting conversation with a friend over the lack of a cross with Jesus (my witness friend called it a 'torture stake') because they deny it was the way Jesus died (so no crosses either).
Mind you, Christian bits aside, there is a great belief that the first 144,000 faithful Witnesses make it into heaven with Jesus (useful to include Him, helps to confirm the 'Christian' label) and after that, the rest end up on Earth doing the gardening (so that's a religion that would work for my Wife's Dad - Tony's Grandad)!
They tend to use The New World Translation (NWT) because it's a version that they translated from all the original texts; and yet oddly it is apparently at odd with the versions I have on my shelf in a number of places. I have always been most taken up with John 1 which tells me: 'In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.' But I find the NWT leads me to think that 'the Word was a god' and that's a big difference that supports the non-Trinitarian stance.
There's much that others point to regarding them (the Witnesses) but this (on both sides, the claims and the ridicule), stuff that is subsidiary and resides in the shadows behind the major errors - mind you they do think Jesus returned some hundred years back and this is why it's all gone Pete Tong since (was told that by a lovely bloke peddling magazines in Lichfield just after Easter - good to have no dogcollar some days!).
I guess I'll leave this short explanation as to the reasons I don't see Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian with a 'word from my sponsor' - remaining in John, this time in chapter 14:
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip?
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."
I hope this provides some explanation to your question.
Showing posts with label dodgy. Show all posts
Showing posts with label dodgy. Show all posts
Saturday, 30 August 2014
I'm confused Vic; they seem to think they're Christian
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Sunday, 3 August 2014
Can't make it to church (Aug 3) ?
An interesting bunch of readings before us today as Jacob legs it from Laban (remember the dodgy Father-in-Law?) and as he approaches home is afraid of Esau (whose Birthright he pinched) he sets up two camps so if there's 'a bit of bother' he can escape with one intact (shrewd or dodgy, which is this man??) and sends the women and children first (always a good idea at sea too as sharks won't eat if they'd been well fed ;-) )!!
Then he bumps into a man with who he wrestles all night and, eventually, the man strikes out and dislocates Jacob's hip and then agrees to bless the tenacious Jacob, changing his name in the process to Israel (he strives with God - or God strives) and naming the place Peniel (the face of God). Here we have rampantly dodgy Jacob getting a blessing!
Even here we find God blessing when perhaps He should be dishing out a thumping (now that's worthy of a hallelujah I reckon).
Jacob has sought peace, prayed to God for deliverance and returned, true to type, to a bit of dodgy dealing (don't you just love the patriarchs?) and then he realises that without God's intervention he is doomed- and this is where He and God begin to really do business and this is where Israel is made real.
Perhaps we, like Jacob, look to God and pray great prayers and the like but also have a rich vein of dodgy dealing and hypocrisy within us. Perhaps today we find ourselves in a place where it's time to stop the posing and gets to grips with God. Perhaps, like Jacob, it's time to out in the hours with God to find a real result that, being from God lasts, even when we know we may well be fickle and flawed.
Sadly the Romans reading is cut just a little short, for if it continued just a little longer it would have given us these words to ponder:
'For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.'
And we like those who, perhaps foolishly, committed their time and remained where Jesus was (in the wilderness) and found themselves fed with physical food (along the spiritual stuff from Jesus) by the disciples. The people are blessed and fed, the disciples are blessed and witnesses to something miraculous and Jesus, overseeing the whole thing sees everyone's needs (physical and spiritual) wonderfully met.
So are you in a wilderness place today? If so, as it says in the Psalm (and displayed in our readings) that if you call upon the Lord then He will answer you and meet your needs according to His love and will be salvation and refuge for us.
Are our lives taken up with keeping God's laws or are we, like Jacob, looking holy but living in some degree of dodginess? If the answer is 'Yes' then we need to come to God and wrestle with Him, face-to-face, and let Him bless us (despite us).
Do we have our hearts set on God and what it means to follow Jesus, the Christ?
Israel is more than just those descended from him (Jacob as was) it is those who live according to God's word and because of Jesus, God's living word. Sadly many Christian live in the belief that having the name 'Christian' is enough - but it's more than wearing a fish or going to your local 'holy huddle' gathering - it's about something spiritual (and I know I struggle here without God's Holy Spirit living and guiding me).
So today the present might be hopeless - we might find ourselves in the wilderness- we might find ourselves returning to type when the chips are down (lying, cheating and worse).
BUT HOPE IS AT HAND - JUST LOOK AT JACOB!!!
Mighty to save - Hillsong
The Collect
Generous God,
you give us gifts and make them grow: though our faith is small as mustard seed, make it grow to your glory and the flourishing of your kingdom;
through Jesus Christ our Lord Amen.
Genesis 32.22-31
The same night he got up and took his two wives, his two maids, and his eleven children, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, and likewise everything that he had. Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he struck him on the hip socket; and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, ‘Let me go, for the day is breaking.’ But Jacob said, ‘I will not let you go, unless you bless me.’ So he said to him, ‘What is your name?’ And he said, ‘Jacob.’ Then the man said, ‘You shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed.’ Then Jacob asked him, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, ‘For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.’ The sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping because of his hip.
Psalm 17.1-7,16
Hear my just cause, O Lord; consider my complaint; listen to my prayer, which comes not from lying lips. Let my vindication come forth from your presence; let your eyes behold what is right. Weigh my heart, examine me by night, refine me, and you will find no impurity in me.
My mouth does not trespass for earthly rewards; I have heeded the words of your lips. My footsteps hold fast in the ways of your commandments; my feet have not stumbled in your paths. I call upon you, O God, for you will answer me; incline your ear to me, and listen to my words. Show me your marvellous loving-kindness, O Saviour of those who take refuge at your right hand from those who rise up against them.
As for me, I shall see your face in righteousness; when I awake and behold your likeness, I shall be satisfied.
Romans 9.1-5
I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience confirms it by the Holy Spirit - I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people, my kindred according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Matthew 14.13-21
Now when Jesus heard this, he withdrew from there in a boat to a deserted place by himself. But when the crowds heard it, they followed him on foot from the towns. When he went ashore, he saw a great crowd; and he had compassion for them and cured their sick. When it was evening, the disciples came to him and said, ‘This is a deserted place, and the hour is now late; send the crowds away so that they may go into the villages and buy food for themselves.’ Jesus said to them, ‘They need not go away; you give them something to eat.’ They replied, ‘We have nothing here but five loaves and two fish.’ And he said, ‘Bring them here to me.’ Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven, and blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And all ate and were filled; and they took up what was left over of the broken pieces, twelve baskets full. And those who ate were about five thousand men, besides women and children.
Post Communion Prayer
Lord God, whose Son is the true vine and the source of life,
ever giving himself that the world may live:
may we so receive within ourselves the power of his death and passion
that, in his saving cup,
we may share his glory and be made perfect in his love;
for he is alive and reigns, now and for ever.
Nada te turbe
Then he bumps into a man with who he wrestles all night and, eventually, the man strikes out and dislocates Jacob's hip and then agrees to bless the tenacious Jacob, changing his name in the process to Israel (he strives with God - or God strives) and naming the place Peniel (the face of God). Here we have rampantly dodgy Jacob getting a blessing!
Even here we find God blessing when perhaps He should be dishing out a thumping (now that's worthy of a hallelujah I reckon).
Jacob has sought peace, prayed to God for deliverance and returned, true to type, to a bit of dodgy dealing (don't you just love the patriarchs?) and then he realises that without God's intervention he is doomed- and this is where He and God begin to really do business and this is where Israel is made real.
Perhaps we, like Jacob, look to God and pray great prayers and the like but also have a rich vein of dodgy dealing and hypocrisy within us. Perhaps today we find ourselves in a place where it's time to stop the posing and gets to grips with God. Perhaps, like Jacob, it's time to out in the hours with God to find a real result that, being from God lasts, even when we know we may well be fickle and flawed.
Sadly the Romans reading is cut just a little short, for if it continued just a little longer it would have given us these words to ponder:
'For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.'
And we like those who, perhaps foolishly, committed their time and remained where Jesus was (in the wilderness) and found themselves fed with physical food (along the spiritual stuff from Jesus) by the disciples. The people are blessed and fed, the disciples are blessed and witnesses to something miraculous and Jesus, overseeing the whole thing sees everyone's needs (physical and spiritual) wonderfully met.
So are you in a wilderness place today? If so, as it says in the Psalm (and displayed in our readings) that if you call upon the Lord then He will answer you and meet your needs according to His love and will be salvation and refuge for us.
Are our lives taken up with keeping God's laws or are we, like Jacob, looking holy but living in some degree of dodginess? If the answer is 'Yes' then we need to come to God and wrestle with Him, face-to-face, and let Him bless us (despite us).
Do we have our hearts set on God and what it means to follow Jesus, the Christ?
Israel is more than just those descended from him (Jacob as was) it is those who live according to God's word and because of Jesus, God's living word. Sadly many Christian live in the belief that having the name 'Christian' is enough - but it's more than wearing a fish or going to your local 'holy huddle' gathering - it's about something spiritual (and I know I struggle here without God's Holy Spirit living and guiding me).
So today the present might be hopeless - we might find ourselves in the wilderness- we might find ourselves returning to type when the chips are down (lying, cheating and worse).
BUT HOPE IS AT HAND - JUST LOOK AT JACOB!!!
Mighty to save - Hillsong
The Collect
Generous God,
you give us gifts and make them grow: though our faith is small as mustard seed, make it grow to your glory and the flourishing of your kingdom;
through Jesus Christ our Lord Amen.
Genesis 32.22-31
The same night he got up and took his two wives, his two maids, and his eleven children, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, and likewise everything that he had. Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he struck him on the hip socket; and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, ‘Let me go, for the day is breaking.’ But Jacob said, ‘I will not let you go, unless you bless me.’ So he said to him, ‘What is your name?’ And he said, ‘Jacob.’ Then the man said, ‘You shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed.’ Then Jacob asked him, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, ‘For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.’ The sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping because of his hip.
Psalm 17.1-7,16
Hear my just cause, O Lord; consider my complaint; listen to my prayer, which comes not from lying lips. Let my vindication come forth from your presence; let your eyes behold what is right. Weigh my heart, examine me by night, refine me, and you will find no impurity in me.
My mouth does not trespass for earthly rewards; I have heeded the words of your lips. My footsteps hold fast in the ways of your commandments; my feet have not stumbled in your paths. I call upon you, O God, for you will answer me; incline your ear to me, and listen to my words. Show me your marvellous loving-kindness, O Saviour of those who take refuge at your right hand from those who rise up against them.
As for me, I shall see your face in righteousness; when I awake and behold your likeness, I shall be satisfied.
Romans 9.1-5
I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience confirms it by the Holy Spirit - I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people, my kindred according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Matthew 14.13-21
Now when Jesus heard this, he withdrew from there in a boat to a deserted place by himself. But when the crowds heard it, they followed him on foot from the towns. When he went ashore, he saw a great crowd; and he had compassion for them and cured their sick. When it was evening, the disciples came to him and said, ‘This is a deserted place, and the hour is now late; send the crowds away so that they may go into the villages and buy food for themselves.’ Jesus said to them, ‘They need not go away; you give them something to eat.’ They replied, ‘We have nothing here but five loaves and two fish.’ And he said, ‘Bring them here to me.’ Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven, and blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And all ate and were filled; and they took up what was left over of the broken pieces, twelve baskets full. And those who ate were about five thousand men, besides women and children.
Post Communion Prayer
Lord God, whose Son is the true vine and the source of life,
ever giving himself that the world may live:
may we so receive within ourselves the power of his death and passion
that, in his saving cup,
we may share his glory and be made perfect in his love;
for he is alive and reigns, now and for ever.
Nada te turbe
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