It seems to me that the situation at St Paul's has touched a nerve and caused many to regard the Church as a body that is firmly in bed with those who have. The only saving grace was that no one actually used the term 'the Conservative Party at prayer', but it's what they surely felt.
The consensus was that St Paul's (funny how like Spring, the building is a sentient entity) should open its doors and welcome in the protesters. Rowan should have made an appearance on the first day and spoken out about the great divide between rich and poor, the excesses of the financial types and the obscenity of the ever increasing profit. "St Paul's is a church that is built on Jesus," said one commentator, "So why are they living like it's a City establishment?"
I explained that there are tensions in that the desire to accomodate and embrace is countered by the pressure of paying the bills, maintaining the building and keeping the lights on and that this was the most likely cause of asking the people to leave. In telling people this we reveal the problem facing so many Christians every day - doing what we need to do Vs doing what is right.
My companion last night said that surely no one would cut the power off because St Paul's hadn't paid. Sadly though, I wasn't so sure.
Another said, "Surely if St Paul's embraced the protesters and ran into financial problems because of it, people would rally round and pay the shortfalls!" Sadly I find myself engaged in a number of things and whilst they are the 'right' things to do, when others hear of it (and the pressures they create) they merely shuffle off, more concerned at meeting their own needs than supporting what should be done! Those who would merely say, "Be well, be blessed and leg it having done nothing are still with us.
A further comment came regarding the wealth of the CofE, how it owns land, property and great treasures. I pointed out the fact that 'having stuff' generated money (well it did!) and this money meant that the bills could be paid, support for the diocese I am in and many other needs could be met. "But they should sell it all," came the response. My reply was, "Fine, but will you put your hand in pocket to help the churches in your town continue? Will you pay so that we can keep our lights on and work in the community?" There was no answer - but I think we all know the answer.
I am always amazed at the number of people who assume that the CofE gets its money from some state funded source and when I explain that our little church needs something approaching £20k to pay the Parish Share and then find money for everything else - they mumble about 'never knew' and 'not right' and leg it (slowly but it is still legging it!).
So for those who stumble across this and think we're living in luxury with no pressures on us consider the image below and then ask - am I supporting the work of my local church?
(click on the image to see a larger image)
Pax
38 comments:
Nicely articulated Vic. I think you've covered all bases.
all the bases except one crucial one - if it is the Lord's work, then 'God will provide'....
Seems to prove the problem is the system... when a church, that is meant to be there for the people, is crippled by the same finaciers the people are fighting against, and the church closes its doors for the same financial reasons.
life is about people and resources..never money!... money is merely a mechanism by which mankind distributes such resources...or of course a mechanism by which to disempower people... by milking it from them at a rate of how much was it per month? Jesus certainly wouldnt be confined by money... merely determination to do what is right.
Dont exchange the TIME you control for the MONEY they control.
from a friend
gather organise and educate.
and pray for mankinds humanity to share.
BTW...i am only anonymous because im not a member... you know which of the 4 i am :o)
i genuinely want to help, but im not a sheep, i am a shepherd...and not a shephard.
in times of deceit to speak the truth becomes a revolutionary act!
what do people say about assumptions?
What would jesus do?
He'd wonder why his own church could no longer recognise him.
The problem isnt that the problem is not recognised...but merely that the problem can not be solved without the relinqishing of powers...
thoughts for food, or food for thought.... turkeys dont vote for christmas.
here was little ignorant me, thinking that the church was designed to be there for its people in times of injustice.
not for the people to be there for the church in times of small turn outs.
i want to rebuild a church for the people, not the bankers or your chain makers.
Loyalty to Justice and Righteousness , not loyalty to bankers and the system.
the system is their designed by man to serve man..or is it system designed by some men to serve themselves?
gods messenger too spicy?
and i am aware how there are forces at work that would tack that as confirmation of my madness. but i dont see any harder hitting topic of debate.
re read your books... it told you about these times... go throw your lines in deeper water Luke....then look up Nizlopi on google... listen to the album 'half these songs are about you'.
that is if dark forces havent got your time so wound up in his false ropes. your bound by nothing but your own will, intent and determination... when money has no value, or not enough value... you know its safe to start a new way.
(i know i sound aggressive but i honestly want to help, and if that is by putting my head above the parapit, then as my grandad said, 'when it gets blown off at least those left behind know where the enemy are'
tack (sic) take... i would have thought someone with such strong opinions of use of language, would edit their own pages with such critique.
the trouble is in the army. those who give the orders forget the foundation of their motivation.
the shepherd leads from behind, egding on, offering help, wether that be critical or supportive.
you know your friends when they say things you may disagree with.
no Lip Or Silver Service on the frontline... you should know that.
What would jesus do?
Carry on sparring against himself i guess???
think this might be one for wowan ;o)
your church seems surprised to receive an answer what you wished for?
whats up?
as mabel swift would have said... summats up!
didnt you hear? the revolution will not be televised.
Verification word for this message is cropp... YTTP (YOU TAKING THE PISS)
BTW...forgive me father, but i know i need to speak with such impact as to ensure the right people hear it.
Oceekke..verification password interesting ( doesnt everything happen for a reason... including revolution... dont fear revelation... it already happened
no one died..though they tried to fake 7...on the M5. but they are now under his wing... ever feel like someones clipping your wings?
Prefis now validation , in red..LMAO
could you see? even if he came up and kissed thee?
averaging 1 post every 4 hours.
until some honest soul saves us.
where is this spokesman of ours?
getting pissed off,
with the brave that will save him?
only a teacher of fools fears the pupil that out learns him... repeat in english hebrew or greek.
(really hope you understand im hijacking your blog for a higher purpose vic)xxx
gratera (gratis) validation code
it doesnt mean free terror.
see the power in the bible is through interpretation?
theres less room for maneoure (sic) maneouvre, when one speaks for himself :O)
deggi )valdation code lmao..sounds like dog doo
what we are seing is the 1% turn the 99% into 40% (those paid off) vs 60% divided...(30 30 with a 40 majority)
i will seek and i will conquer... now bow down so i may save you from yourselves
traven now secure validation code
sounds like traveller to me.
jesus keeps on movin. cos he knows they are after his church
whos the one with the hook?
cos im waiting for a bite?
i seem to keep striking too soon or the fish have no real faith...or more important confidence.
the break down in communities has been designed many decades ago.
and to see the church take orders from financiers rather than their own flock creates..inevitability
wershonc validation word
yep its getting worse.
guess jesus knows when he is home cos his congregation will go quiet.
because they are listening :o)..and analysing
inipsz validation code
Shhhhhhh
harder to manipulate someones words when they write them down for themselves isnt it?
lysubst verification code
robust springs to mind
ok..no repies to be had here then.
phantom.prophet@hotmail.com is my email
and thephantomprophet on youtube
go to you tube and search for thephantomprophet to find my site with lots of videos and music for you to listen to...
seek and thou shall find
Enaterm validation code
eternal term.. thats the message i get at least
BTW..the system use subliminal messaging to coherse the crowd..only the truely faithful trust their own congregations thoughts.. for the true congregation can give true opinion...see the diamond you are meant to protect beyond my doing?
i do believe...the most comments you have recieved on a single post..and still no answer... vic?
you know where i live, please come ask//theres more to come and its better when im not left to vocalise based on assumptions
what do they say about assume?
salim is the verifaction code
salladin, salem, solomon... etc take your pick... its bright
Austerity means fuk all when spoken from the mouths of those sitting on millions in wealth.
oxitol is verifaction code
i sure know what an oxy moron is. :o)
guessing Rays Barnes maigh be running around right now, covering a few more bases they never knew exsisted. ;o)
the darkness is cast out by light... not by light cowering to darkness.
have you forgotten which can live without which?
equily is validation code
lol... have i got to spell it out.
it said not valid... must have spelt it wrong...;o)
now it says validation code jings
LOL... truth Rings.
xxx love you all
a messenger that doesnt even know it
its not about how quickly you run,
but where you put your footsteps
merhing is validation code
red herring or mere ring?
:o) xxx
dont worry... its nothing personal...
everytime i enter a room it goes quiet. ;o)
suder is validation code
sudden shock?
Vic... i think you passed a test... a test i am the mirror to... the one thing that doesnt reflect in the picture. the mirror. the one beyond bounds of judgement.
just there to reflect. but with bounds of honest care and hope.
people of high and low standing have lost faith...and fuking understanderably...pfff...lol
stoptopk is validation code
shut up now yea?
28 logs... enough for a fire yet?
cousneud is validation
councilled mean anthing to anyone nowadays? or is it ALL done without your knowledge.
or is the dark one telling you what to think about me?
29.... 30 31 32 33 coming up... hope you boys are up for the real deal. ;o)..now time for sleep... night night noddy
astflecl is validation code
yes 'all fukle the suckle'
arsed fukle,
one up the bum was apparently one serious harm done.! ;o)
see me now?
and the beauty was i just let your own random number generator determine what i said...
seems the definition of madness is talking louder than lunatics.
cos if anyone speaks louder than the esablishment ,????....well volume or support seems a crime.
dructa is validation key
says it all. you know me.
still think your parish'ners are ordinary folk?
before taking a lamb to the slaughter... becareful it is not a sheep in wolves clothing... you know the white wolf. left out the bible before shapes formed on moses rock.
... you know me... if you dont, your masters do, and tell them a disaster is due... unto them... it all comes round again... from what you all do.
i am no fool or no saviour... im just here to remind of the love that god gave you.
conflas is verification key
confussious springs to mind
all quiet on the home front..seems harder for vicar to speak when he knows a certain persons watching.
matime is verification code
my time? would you say?
Mmmm! System seems to have stopped letting me post!
Last try - Don't think the 'God Provides' was forgotten by me but wonder if the panic on the part of some left them thinking with heads rather than hearts. Still some have had their wake-up call (no clocks needed sadly) and perhaps things are on the right track now.
As for the other comments: The reality is that the Church (universal) is there for the people, always has been and hopefully will continue to be. The St Paul's situation has actually shown just how many are engaged in living the Gospel and 'being the difference' - of course the problem with a place like St Paul's is that people tend to come in rather than the Church be seen to go out, but this is merely an illusion I'm sure.
End of a busy day approaches and beginning of an equally busier one beckons - cup nearly drained and energy pretty much spent and yet still so much appealing for attention, even now!
Regardless I love this job and the bloke I work for!
Pax Guys
As I posted I saw the words, "all quiet on the home front..seems harder for vicar to speak when he knows a certain persons watching."
Never hard to speak but always harder to act and as for people watching - happens 7*24*365 - for God is always watching and He's the one that really matters (isn't He?).
Doing the right thing isn't popular, isn't always easy and isn't taking the easy route - then again it never has been, ask the man whose footsteps we walk in!
my only sorrow, is that you were still up at 1am answering my ramblings... sometimes a comrade can be so bogged down in the trenches it takes someone else to be in distress for him to snap out of it.
Sleep tight brother, now you know you are not alone i only hope you may be more receptive to suggestions next time. the true church is outside your walls as are your prophets, seers and plain moral guides.
thanks for the reply... Reason for delay respected...
Peding verification code
Pending? one may wonder.
Thanks for this.
Yet, I think there are awkward questions about the quality of the relationship between the Church Commissioners and dioceses and the financial industry. I think if the relationship was a little more transparent you’d have probably heard more from the pulpits (of churches and cathedrals) on the subject of the excesses of global capitalism. Not to mention (something protestors and many in the street forget) the fact that the recent financial crash – like almost ALL financial crashes – had three areas where the blame could be apportioned: the banks and financial industry; the governments of Blair, Brown and Bush (not to mention those of our European neighbours) who happily turned a blind eye to overheated markets (esp. housing) and of course Joe Public, who gladly embraced credit, lived beyond their means and revelled in soaring property prices, not realising or ignoring the fact that someday everything has to be paid for.
It is peculiar how the state provides little or no direct help (not forgetting Gift Aid and charitable advantages enjoyed by many churches) for churches. However many faith based social welfare charities are hugely subsidised by the state: the Salvation Army, Livability, Leeds Catholic Care etc. receive the bulk of their income from the taxpayer for the ‘social welfare’ side of the work they do (in the case of the latter, getting on for 94%!). My own feeling (backed by my own and others’ academic research) is that it is time to cut the ties. If faith based organisations want to do charitable work, let them, but don’t claim it is ‘faith in action’ when it is really heavily subsidised by the state and the bulk of the hands on work is done is not necessarily done by believers (indeed, often the reverse). When the money stops, the thinking starts – and that is what is needed to make faith based organisations different to the plethora of other voluntary and private organisations – many of which do the same work, for less cost and without boring us about their ‘Christian’ witness – a ‘witness’ that is often imaginary – in the hearts and minds of fellow Christians – than a concrete reality.
Similarly, the CofE would benefit from sundering itself from the state and the Church Commissioners (which, like it or not, are a sort of state/church Qango). Yes, churches would close, yes, theological colleges would fold, parishes would falter and clergy would have to put their money where their mouths where. But it would be REALLY costly. The CofE, like much in our modern, Western societies (health care, welfare, education, infrastructure etc.) is stuck in a malaise of inertia because it doesn’t have to try too hard – stipends and pensions will still be paid, houses and churches maintained – a place in society reasonably assured. But is this really ‘The Gospel’ way of doing things, or is it a cosy compromise that is endured because of blatant self-interest on the part of the clergy and the parishes? As you rightly note, how many parishes would survived if they didn’t get subsidised by the diocese and the Church Commissioners?
The present financial problems of the world and Europe in particular, are prophetic glimpses of what is to come. Since the end of WW2 Britain has been living beyond its means. Initially it was believed (by Beveridge et el) that subsidising health care, education and welfare would make for a richer country – a healthier, educated workforce: a good thing; but it also led to dependence and inertia. All we’ve been doing for the past 30 years, is putting off the inventible: we cannot continue to live our lives the way we do, because we are just piling up debt and continue to make ourselves unappealing as we are not competitive in a global market.
I would suggest the CofE shares a similar malady: it is itself an artificial edifice and cannot continue in its present form for much longer.
When the money stops, the thinking starts... It is time to cut the ties and once more be dependent upon faith and what it inspires and builds.
Peter Denshaw
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