I have received a great question regarding this thread, it goes like this:
"Are we facing the problems we have regarding paying for clergy because of the Clericalism of the Church of England. Do other denominations suffer less than us because they have leadership styles that draw upon all the members rather than one leader or group of leaders?"
I guess the first step here is to assess what the other churches do and a quick finger in the air shows me that even where the church style is congregational we generally find that leaders (Pastor, Minister, Vicar or Elder) are paid and unpaid. Some of the congregations pay directly for their leaders and where the ability to do this is limited then the leader is unpaid, where there is money to pay for the leader/s they do - it's as simple as that!
I struggle with clericalism but then again I struggle with much of the anticlerical stuff too. There was a bit of a wally who used to talk about taking the grip of the clergy off of the stuff that is Church and handing it back to the people (a sentiment with which I am in full agreement by the way). The reality was that whilst they sought a decline in ordained clergy and the empowering of members, what was happening was that we saw no coherent leadership or planning and panic mode recovery of situations where nothing had been done. I am all for leaders who lead regardless of renumeration issues but also return to the number of Elim ministers I have worked with whose one desire was to be able to stop their day job and concentrate all their time on the ministry before them. This desire to be able to do the stuff without the distraction of a day job seems to indicate that the stipend is a sound concept.
Now, oddly enough, my original ambition was to be a minister who worked in the world as saw the world as my parish - as happened with the train and the church it became and the people with whom I engaged in the workplace - but I was persuaded to take the stipendiary route and have to say I have no regrets at this.
The reality though is that it's not about clericalism but about paying for the privilege of having someone spin the plates, visit the sick and generally get stuck in on a 7*24*365 basis (although I do feel some sell their vocations a little short regarding this, but that's for a different discussion) and they do this because they have been 'called out' (ekklesia) to do that roll.
The majority of the churches, groups, denominations and settings I have looked at pay for their leaders when they can and some do it even when they can't because of the generosity of others through relationships or by means of the Common Purse (Parish Share). Some groupings, denominations and the like do perhaps suffer less because they work on the basis that the ability and desire to pay, for this engenders the ability in others, is the key to whether payment is made and so a cash strapped church is freed from the need to pay what they cannot afford. The problem is (and I have just run someone to check as they have an unpaid pastor) is that those who rely upon lay led leadership do find that the tensions between 'ruling elders' and the rest and the lack of cohesive direction is a price that is paid when the price of leaders is not paid. A real conundrum that isn't it?
So the answer to the question appears to be, "No, the problem isn't that we pay the clergy to do stuff, it's a much deeper issue than that and looks at changing church needs, the ability to pay, numbers of people coming forward to be ordained and a good many other issues. It's not about clericalism - it's much wider, deeper and demanding that that alone."
With this I find more to add to the scales and more to to be considered in this evermore weighty issue.
Pax
Showing posts with label clericalism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label clericalism. Show all posts
Tuesday, 30 September 2014
Wednesday, 22 February 2012
Ordination - Is there an easy route please?
Had an interesting conversation with someone today regarding an easier path to being ordained. They didn't want to go to college and weren't sure they wanted to go to any form of 'selection' conference because it sounded a bit stressful. Not only that but they only wanted to be ordained and remain in their 'sending' church (where they were already working and doing services.
I asked one of my favourite questions (after the 'how' and 'why' questions), "What would ordination do for you and what could you do without it that you couldn't do now?" The response was a new one for me because the answer was, "Nothing - I'm already doing it now!'
Impressed I asked the questions:
Leading services - Yep!
Worship - Yep!
Praying - Yep!
Preaching - Yep!
Involved in the communion service - Yep (and in fact they told me they were already 'doing communion' when their minister was away)!!
I asked where they were (outside of our diocese) and why they'd called me (because someone they know knows me and thought I'd be able to advise) and then got more involved with the more pressing questions after which it transpired that they were in a multi-benefice setup and the clerical person had told them that they needed to get ordained so they could 'formalise' what they were doing. After more discussion I realised that what they wanted was to be ordained to the group of churches and those alone (what we call an ordained local minister where we are) and no more.
I've suggested that they have a chat to a local ministry advisor in their own patch or even arrange an introduction to their DDO. Oddly, what I find interesting here is that this conversation appears to have been prompted by a cleric who was looking to make their local help more official and I can understand why (five churches in the group is reason enough) but I am also left wondering what I could have done further?
It was only a couple of days ago that I was in a group where I brought up the increasing desire to convert any adequate or able lay person into a minister because of the workloads and pressures and here I am perhaps facing yet another of this being flesh in this instance.
I'm left wondering what some clergy see ordination as being and how they discern calling?
Gis' us a clue? Has anyone else encountered anything like this I wonder?
Pax
I asked one of my favourite questions (after the 'how' and 'why' questions), "What would ordination do for you and what could you do without it that you couldn't do now?" The response was a new one for me because the answer was, "Nothing - I'm already doing it now!'
Impressed I asked the questions:
Leading services - Yep!
Worship - Yep!
Praying - Yep!
Preaching - Yep!
Involved in the communion service - Yep (and in fact they told me they were already 'doing communion' when their minister was away)!!
I asked where they were (outside of our diocese) and why they'd called me (because someone they know knows me and thought I'd be able to advise) and then got more involved with the more pressing questions after which it transpired that they were in a multi-benefice setup and the clerical person had told them that they needed to get ordained so they could 'formalise' what they were doing. After more discussion I realised that what they wanted was to be ordained to the group of churches and those alone (what we call an ordained local minister where we are) and no more.
I've suggested that they have a chat to a local ministry advisor in their own patch or even arrange an introduction to their DDO. Oddly, what I find interesting here is that this conversation appears to have been prompted by a cleric who was looking to make their local help more official and I can understand why (five churches in the group is reason enough) but I am also left wondering what I could have done further?
It was only a couple of days ago that I was in a group where I brought up the increasing desire to convert any adequate or able lay person into a minister because of the workloads and pressures and here I am perhaps facing yet another of this being flesh in this instance.
I'm left wondering what some clergy see ordination as being and how they discern calling?
Gis' us a clue? Has anyone else encountered anything like this I wonder?
Pax
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