I was engaged in another one of the 'those' conversations whereby I was asked how much it cost to do a funeral in a church.
Smugly I pointed to the piece of paper on the wall that is the 'Fees table' for 2011 (feeling good that I had posted it there like what a good dog-collar should do).
"Here is is, 'Service in church, cemetery or crematorium', the main fee (as payable by law) is £102.00."
"So how come I have to pay £281 for the service we had," came the response (Not our church building by the way!).
"Well," said I (hoping I was right), "there are also 'extras' which need to be paid such as the cost of a verger, organist, choir, bells, flowers and other stuff that is relevant to the type of service you're paying for."
"So that means that you get the £102 then does it?" asked my inquisitor.
I knew what was coming next, the conversation about me profiting personally from the misery of others. It wouldn't be the first and probably not the last time I'd be engaged in this discussion.
"Well no, it doesn't," says I, "Clergy generally 'assign' the fees to the diocese and so basically it goes to them and not us."
So then I get asked why they had to pay extra again for them to play a CD in the church building. I suggested that it might be towards the cost of a copyright licence so that it could be done legally, or perhaps pay for the trained gorilla what puts the discs in and plays them when the dog-collar nods.
I start to explain all about the Ecclesiastical Fees Measure of 1986 and the Parochial Fees Order 2010 and how they are legally binding and how on top of that the church building needs to be heated, lit and insured and how so many other things need to be paid for.
Now I understand what was being said and I understand that on top of the church costs there are also cremation or burial fees, but I wish we would sort ourselves out a little in terms of being a bit more transparent over what people pay for and why.
Just when I thought I'd managed to communicate the situation clearly and was home dry, I was asked, "What about the offerings at Christmas and Easter, don't you keep them?"
"Oh no!" said the dog-collar, "Here we go again!"
Pax
9 comments:
It's a common misconception from those who do not belong to a church that the Vicar gets everything.
In fact, from my perspective as a treasurer, the vicar gets remarkably little. My Vicars stipend exceeds my pension by a few £.
And if the Vicar does not assign their fees, they have a nightmare with the taxman.
What other profession employs highly educated, trained, widely experienced professionals for just above the minimum wage?
Off course as Office Holders we know that you do it for love!
It's interesting that if I were eventually to become an NSM, I would be entitled to nothing, being regarded as a self funding volunteer.
And others think the CofE, including stipends, is funded by the state from general taxation. And then there are always those characters who, if told something by one person, will have to go and check it out with two or three more.
I'm all for transparency. The funeral directors I deal with have a list of the fees for each of the three parishes in the benefice, and I let them know what we are charging for. I have no idea whether this information appears on the invoice that the executor receives. However, one of the reasons why there are elements that the PCCs are allowed to set is that circumstances differ. Buildings are large or small, old or new. The musical tradition of a church may require an organist with greater skills than at another (and the RSCM has a recommended scale to reflect this). Bellringers may or may not be available and/or required. Etc., etc.
But it is hard to be expected to justify someone else's actions on the basis of such limited information.
Nothing except 'out of pocket' expenses anyway.
An interesting situation, especially when we consider the position of retired clergy (might address this tomorrow or even tonight if I can't sleep).
Thanks for comments,
V
Sorry Simmy - we 'doubled'!
Indeed, it is hard to explain how another parson (sic) works out their charges for a service.
If what we do and what we offer, along with what we have to charge, is obvious and apparent there are no nasty surprises and no grounds for niggle to creep in.
Thanks,
V
we pay £57 and local undertaker pays £160 to lay people. Were doomed!!
I have always made it a point to never get involved with fees regardless of what they relate to as I feel that people tend to form an opinion that we (clergy) are involved because of the cash and not to support them pastorally.
That said, I have had a few people contact me regarding fees (thankfully not from our patch)and had to explain that ministers have no right to waive the fees for funerals or weddings and have to explain that there are a number of 'incidentals' that need to be taken into account.
I always point them back to the undertaker as the first point of call rather than the cleric (or lay person) involved as it shouldn't be theirs to deal with.
Thanks for comments,
V
Hi Vic
I think that actually you (or rather Alan - they are the incumbent's fees, not yours) can waive the fees in cases of financial hardship. But it's not recommended as it sets precedents and leads means others are paying for that service (nothing's free).
I've never waived them but I have done discounts that came out of the non-statutory part (i.e. we still took the full "fee" but little or nothing more).
I read a document a couple of years back which stated exactly that. It was permitted to vary the charges for weddings or funerals BUT the statutory fees had to be charged.
I recall a case a couple of diocese back where the minister paid the 'main fee' himself because the person concerned was a member of the church and he felt it fitting and right that the church should not be seen to charge.
It can be a sticky issue indeed.
On an added personal note, I do struggle when I do a service out of area and the Funeral director comes up and hands me an envelope in front of everyone. Make me feel like I'm betraying calling and customer.
Probably just my personal hang up showing there.
Thanks Ollie,
V
I hadn't realised that ministers didn't get the fees. I always assumed that the money went to them and so am enlightened and in need of repenting of my "only doing it for the money" attitude.
I found the blog by mistake and have learned a great deal from it.
Thank you for taking the opportunity to inform a bop (I think that's what you call us).
K
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