From the white poppy, because the red poppy is a political symbol and a statement of national pride through to the same old, same old tosh about 'dying in vain' this man continues to peddle his wares and sadly does this as a Christian, which (as I found yesterday from others who mentioned the bloke) does less, and says the wrong things, about Christians and Christ! Still at least he left bomber command alone (didn't he?)!
I am happy for the man to say stuff, just a shame it appears to be more about his pacifistic, and apparently humanist, views than about Christ or Christian viewpoints at so many levels (and on so many issues). Still, let's get a few things straight:
Remembrance does not glorify war.
Remembrance is not blind to the loss of life and the amazing ability that one has in war to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.Remembrance does not gloss over the futility of war but prays for peace and remembers those who went. It honours those, often scared, ordinary people, who pulled off some extremely courageous acts (including climbing into the aircraft of Bomber Command and setting sail across an Ocean where death lurked beneath the surface).The poppy derives its existence from the battlefields of the 1914-18 conflict, it is not a political image, neither is it a jingositic icon - it is a reminder of those who served, and died, in conflicts near, past and present.Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan and many other theatres of conflict were (and still are) about peace, they were about freedom. Because it wasn't explicitly Mr B's freedom (or mine as I've never lived in Northern Ireland) does not remove the reality that freedom was an issue. Of course, perhaps we should concede points and rights to those who wish to act wrongly so that Bratley can keep his pacifistic hands clean. Guess as long as it isn't in his backyard he'll be happy for that and will continue to speak as he (yawn) does because he's has the right to do so - a right that was won by people who served (and flew bombers too!).
For those who I know who have been offended by the man's words I would like to apologise and point out that he speaks merely for himself and does not represent the mainstream Christian view as I understand it (thank the Lord!).
Pax
12 comments:
The man's a complete bloody loonie and speaks for few that I know of.
Thank's for your observations and comments
Padre,
The man is a !@*!@*!@*
Good post - good service yesterday
SR soldier
Harry Patch seemed to have it right:
"We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"
And he called Remembrance day just 'show business'.
I have seen no reasosn to think he was wrong about either of these things.
Well Harry and you, Andrew, are indeed entitled to your opinion on this but the problem is that when we see great evil enacted we have to take a stand and act in defence of the weak, oppressed and the dispossessed (or am I reading my Bible wrong?).
That Harry Patch was called up and taken away to a most terrible war (on every side of the equation - management, leadership, means of combat and, as I say, everything) is indeed something that cannot, and is not in Remembrancetide, played up or made to look good, right or glorious. How right he was that politicians (those who create and commission war) are the people who should settle things, but when they don't, when the oppression, genocide and awful acts are taking place - who you gonna call?
And when they've been called, we mark their passing with respect and honour, not glory and not lightly.
I think to label Remembrance Sunday or Armistice Day as 'Show Business' is to dishonour the dead and to generally show oneself off in a thoroughly bad light rather than the act of remembrance.
Thats said, thanks for the comments - always welcome (even when I don't perhaps agree) and you've given me the thought that 'war is a licence to go out and stop people murdering!'
I remember a few years back writing to a friend and suggesting that instead of the use of the armed forces to settle conflicts we send the governments involved into an arena for an 'it's a knockout styled' event - show them for the buffoons they often are and might be entertaining too!
Pax
Thanks again
Not sure what a Canon is but I can take a fair go at it from what has been written!
Harry patch went to great war and lived to a great age but that doesn't make his views right or add any weight to them. I've been to test matches around the world and my comments about cricket have no been made more valid by the fact.
I'd add my name (Jim) but I don't subscribe to google.
Like what you said Vicar (is it really Vic).
Jim: I guess if you had played in lots of test matches, then your views would have more weight than if you had just been a spectator. Harry Patch had much more experience than me, and so I bow to his better judgement.
Vic: glad to disagree amicably. It's what mnakes us part of the same church family.
As to reading your bible wrong - probably just a bit too simplistically is how I would respond.
Back in for a brew and find more comments!
I take on board what you say about being there not lending much, then again as the last man standing he experienced stuff that no other man could remember and that which he carried around with him obviously coloured his views.
We all do that, no news here. Not only that but we all quote those sources that support what we want to say and lend support to our views whether they are extra-biblical, countercultural or self-serving.
Just another example of all of the above with conflict being the focal point of the discussion.
Thanks Jim,
V
I wouldn't mind going to see any test match!
Simplistic - must be getting better for everyone else tells me I take it too deep and too seriously :)
See hope for us all,
Pax
Going to a Test Match is indeed far preferable to going to any number of Remembrance Day services.
Everyone tells you that you take the bible far too deep and seriously? Everyone? Goodness, what kind of circles are you mixing in?!
Probably the same as yours, I'm just a bit higher class :))
Mind you although I do tend to like Hauerwas and Barth far too much I think having gotten into Brueggemann of late frightens the majority of those with the 'tear here and discount' pages on their Bibles (which sadly can be found on all sides of the lines that are drawn).
Hey ho, makes for fun and keeps us going down in the deep seams of Church.
Whilst I read and disagree with you on many things I cannot bet support you on this issue Vic.
My Grandad (after serving in WW1 and WW2) told my mum that if we had lost to Germany in either war he would have shot his whole family than be ruled by Germany. He fought in both wars for the freedom his family had and wanted to keep. He never wore his medals at any parade and suffered from shell shock. He wasn't particularly proud of what he had to do or what was done, but he wore a red poppy to remember what had been done and the people who were lost - to remember and never to forget. As the wife of a serving soldier, I wear my poppy to remember the friends we have lost in the last few years. I would never wear a white poppy because they are not the poppies of Flander Fields.
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