I'm confused Vic; they seem to think they're Christian

The title of this entry relates to something I've said regarding the Jehovah's Witnesses and the fact that I said I didn't think they were Christian, I received this challenging (and most excellent) comment:

'I'm confused Vic; they seem to think they are?'

Indeed they do, or at least they want others to think that they are, but using the name Jesus in a different context to that which is considered to be orthodox doesn't make you Christian and more than using Man U as a focus for ridicule makes you their supporter. But the 'Christian' claim adds, or at least attempts to add, some integrity and implicit value to a bunch of (albeit nice) people who are not, as I understand it actually Christian.

I used to have a number of friends who talked of the bloke who started the thing off some 150 years hence and was quite impressed by some of their stuff, it all started to go wrong when I read about him flooding 'miracle wheat' what wasn't- in fact it was a bit of a scam and, if I recall correctly, he was found guilty of being just a bit dodgy!

But let's no dwell in ad hominem but look at what they believe - and here it might help if we had a look at the Creed, for this is surely a benchmark document. Here we find that the Witnesses focus entirely on Jehovah (the name sort of gives it away) - just one God (without the other two persons of the Trinity) and I have a recollection somewhere that Jesus and the archangel Michael are viewed as being one and he same. I also recall a quite interesting conversation with a friend over the lack of a cross with Jesus (my witness friend called it a 'torture stake') because they deny it was the way Jesus died (so no crosses either).

Mind you, Christian bits aside, there is a great belief that the first 144,000 faithful Witnesses make it into heaven with Jesus (useful to include Him, helps to confirm the 'Christian' label) and after that, the rest end up on Earth doing the gardening (so that's a religion that would work for my Wife's Dad - Tony's Grandad)!

They tend to use The New World Translation (NWT) because it's a version that they translated from all the original texts; and yet oddly it is apparently at odd with the versions I have on my shelf in a number of places. I have always been most taken up with John 1 which tells me: 'In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.' But I find the NWT leads me to think that 'the Word was a god' and that's a big difference that supports the non-Trinitarian stance.

There's much that others point to regarding them (the Witnesses) but this (on both sides, the claims and the ridicule), stuff that is subsidiary and resides in the shadows behind the major errors - mind you they do think Jesus returned some hundred years back and this is why it's all gone Pete Tong since (was told that by a lovely bloke peddling magazines in Lichfield just after Easter - good to have no dogcollar some days!).

I guess I'll leave this short explanation as to the reasons I don't see Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian with a 'word from my sponsor' - remaining in John, this time in chapter 14:

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Jesus said to him,  “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip?
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.  How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

I hope this provides some explanation to your question.

Baptism and Liturgy - some simple answers (No.2a)

Well I never thought I'd be struggling to restrict what I thought I was going to write into three posts, but I am. A friend has thrown me a couple of extra balls (one was a real curveball and the second was a googly) of epic proportion in that they have drawn me deeper into thinking around the issue before me.

But I will try and be a good chap and this attempt sees me split response the second into a couple of elements (alpha and bravo) - so let us begin:

The second conversation raised the question, 'Surely the time has come to drop paedobaptism and get your liturgy and practice Biblical in turning to the only credible baptismal practice?'

Goodness gracious me, what a thought and how many assumptions are being made (which I might find ending up in response number three at this rate). But I'll have a go (as they did regarding my 1600 AD 'believer's baptism' error comment!). As I understand it the Biblical and early Church practice, for we wouldn't expect those in the days when the Apostle's were alive to be bringing about conflict now would we? The question is whether we can trust them (and Have have endured many lectures of the patristic errors - ante-Nicene, Nicene and post-Nicene [90 - 600 AD] - looking to the death of John, the last living Apostle before everyone rushed out and got down and heretical*).

I have to say that I am fairly confident that the practice of infant baptism was widespread and consistent during, and throughout, the early Church and that it is Biblical (see 2b when I get it posted)! But as much as the other person in the conversation might like me to embrace 'believer's baptism' as a sole practice, it just isn't going to happen. In fact I can see an extremely good reason for embracing both practices - let's hope you can:

In the early days of Christianity we find reference made to 'whole households being baptised' and there are parallels that some would draw us to in the 'covenantal' act of circumcision and the parallel to this for the Christian sect of Judaism (which eschewed circumcision of the flesh for the circumcision of the heart) who retained a covenantal initiation rite in baptism. This can be a compelling path for both acts (Baptism and Circumcision) are a 'one time only' affair! This does not sit well with those of the Anabaptist fraternity of course ;-)

I recall sitting in the Laing lecture theatre many years ago and hearing a compelling lecture on the fact that baptism appeared to be very much households rather than individuals and how we, in our practice today where we go to a meeting, make a decision and become Christians, had developed a mindset that led to our thinking: 'hear, decide, be baptised.' Of course the reality was that it was hear, decide, repent, learn and get baptised at Easter (or whenever) after you'd learnt the Apostle's creed and made the tenets of the faith your own. This, as a Pentecostal type, caused me some discomfort as I'd been conditioned to assume that it was only believer's baptism that was valid and that they did it like we do now - and this was my 'now' to the early Church's 'then'.

My next bump in the road came when I started to realise that if it was whole households then this was children as well as adults. As I discovered more about 'non persona' and how slaves, women and children were admitted into the Church I discovered also that this meant infants, those outside of the 'age of cognition' were coming in back then. This was a problem because you had to know before you could make a decision, didn't you? If this wasn't true then where, and how, did this sit with believer's baptism?

The crunch came for me with a lecture that put it into a perspective that gave me some peace regarding the paedobaptism vs Believer's Baptism conflict:

When the Church got going people came to faith and were baptised. Not as individuals but as families (or households), for Christianity was (and still should be) an issue of ethnicity. Christian wasn't (and still isn't) an issue of what you did - it was who you were! So they baptised families and as children were born, it appears to me that they too were brought into the Church of Christ too. The concept of 'whole families' -the household 'oikos' bit - is quite important because it speaks of all who were part of the family not just, as some I have heard teach on this, those who were adults or male.

At one lecture, during the Q&A bit, one lecturer stated that he chose to believe that only adults were baptised and that these were men and women. When asked why, their response was because that fitted with their belief. get in there! I love the 'it is because I want it to be!' approach to things - works so well for so many of us :-)

So I realised that there did appear to be warrant for baptism of babies in the Bible (or should we discount even more of it to support our views I wondered?) and, even though it didn't sit comfortably with me, realised that both paedobaptism and believer's baptism were valid and to be used when the situation arose. I would also have to say that whilst oikos baptism was valid, the practice of a missionary Church as the ground it covered expanded and the way that it reached out developed methodology and shape, that believer's baptism was indeed one of the primary routes for individuals to come into the Church - but then, until the 1600's perhaps, even when an adult had made the decision, the family were still drawn into baptism and those who were added through birth were definitely added when they appeared rather than wait until cognition or age made their profession possible.

What is clear - and here some will kick me - there is but one baptism and this, if done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is valid. Take a look see, the only support for an Anabaptist experience I can find is when the baptism was not done in Jesus' name (Acts 19).  Moving on, many have taught me that what is valid in the way we engage in baptising people comes from Jesus Himself in the (Matthew 28) 'Great Commission'. This, I am told, teaches us that we go:

'And make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.'

Just a thought of course - is this formulaic (and many tell me that it is) or a statement of whose name and authority we baptise in. If it's the former then any baptism done in the name of the trinity is therefore valid (for we have made for ourselves perhaps some little confidence in the infant bit so can now consider just baptism) and if it's not then with the authority we have, and the warrant of Acts 19, we know that as long as it's done in the name of Jesus, then it is valid. Either, any and all ways though - rebaptism where a valid baptism has been enacted is wrong and contrary to Scripture.

Unless of course you think that your baptism is more scriptural, worthy and efficacious - and then we have to talk about division, arrogance and unbiblical stuff, don't we?

So - bottom line:

Which is valid - Infant or Adult, Babe or Believer - when it comes to baptism?

And I have to answer both in the right place and way (and where's that? That is surely something for another day as it is tomorrow already and there's still office and stuff to do before Zzzzzzzs).

But before I do - an great quote from History of the Christian Church - Vol 2 (Philip Schaff and David Schley Schaff, 1910, p.258).

'By answering  "While the church was still a missionary institution in the midst of a heathen world, infant baptism was overshadowed by the baptism of adult proselytes; as, in the following periods, upon the union of church and state, the order was reversed"'

I have to agree with the first clause, for growth of the Church came about by winning adults into it and this meant Adult, proselyte baptism was indeed the preeminent method of initiation.

The second clause works for me too, but for perhaps different reasons, in that once a Church becomes settled the numbers of adults being baptised might diminishes as the number of children born into the Christian households (and being initiated into the Church) would increase.

That this is due to, rather than coincidentally occurring at the same time as, the 'union of Church and state' occurs is an extrapolation or an expectation that might and coercion were in bed to bring about the infant baptisms. (I don't recall reading this anywhere - but will go and take a look) Interestingly it moves infant baptism from Patristic error to Papist plot then (doesn't it?).

But the clock has definitely beaten me and whatever is here (and I know there will be typos - i splurge the brain onto the screen and leave the fat fingers to accompany the equally fat head!).

Blessings



* I say this because some of those who have lectured me on this have varied in much but all draw on John's death as permission for the Church to bring in dodgy stuff he might not of otherwise approved of. This has always caused me some problems and surely those believers who remained must have known what was right and wrong - or were they all stupid and gullible?

Robert Watson-Watt: Father of RADAR

Whilst on the theme of poetry, one of my favourites 'Rough Justice' comes from the pen of Sir Robert Alexander Watson-Watt (RAWW) the pioner (and in my view, the father) of RAdio Detection And Ranging (RADAR).

Sir Robert Alexander Watson-Watt KCB FRS FRAeS
13th April 1892 – 5th December 1973

The poem relates to RAWW being pulled over for speeding thanks to the police officer's radar gun. Legend has it that as the officer wrote out the ticket, Watson-Watt remarked, 'Had I known what you were going to do with it (RADAR) I would never have invented it!'

Rough Justice
Pity Sir Robert Watson-Watt, 
strange target of this radar plot,
And thus, with others I can mention, 
the victim of his own invention.
His magical all-seeing eye 
enabled cloud-bound planes to fly,
but now by some ironic twist, 
it spots the speeding motorist
and bites,
no doubt with legal wit, 
the hand that once created it !

Sitting alongside William Shockley and so many others, Watson Watt possesses probably the cheekiest face of all my scientific and technologist heroes.

The word 'Church'

One of the biggest issues I have been confronted with for some time surrounds the word 'Church'.

Of course the reason for this is the British government's decisions over certain other (yawn) issues and I, for one, am perhaps not just bored to death with it all and the distractions that it brings but also in some small part just a little grateful.

Surprised? (of course you are - so let me explain)

The two 'churches'  that have been most quoted as being in favour of, and wishing to, provide 'religious' services for you know what are the Quakers and the Unitarians.

So we have to perhaps first and foremost ask ourselves what these two groups are and how we should regard them - and the answer to this is:

NOT CHRISTIAN!

So what we actually have is two non-Christian groups (and the use of the word 'church' is valid here in the context of relating it means and bunch of people who hold to the same views, beliefs (for atheists, political types and others all have tenets of belief and understanding). What they are not is (think I've said this) Christian and so it is perhaps not a surprise that they wish to do as they do.

Just to refresh memories (as I have said this before too - take a looks at VtV's past):

QUAKERS

Origins: England

Began in: Mid-Seventeenth Century Founder: George Fox (UK), William Penn (USA)

Membership: c. 200,000 worldwide

Bible: It's a good read and can yield some interesting and quite motivational stuff, but it's no more special than any other book out there. It most certainly isn't the inspired Word of God and although it might be found within a Quaker setting, it would only be one of many other books that might inspire or motivate and be merely equal to the rest.

Beliefs: To use their own words, "Quakers do not share a fixed set of beliefs."
They are essentially another brand of (universalist) Unitarians who meet together and have a 'shared understanding' but no common or unifying creed, concept of God and like the Unitarians find Pagans (of which there seems to be a lot of) rubbing shoulders with atheists and other philosophical and religious thinking.

Everyone has something (the light) of God within them and that all are equal regardless of belief, behaviour or practices.

This is one of the reasons they are pacifistic (another Unitarian characteristic), because all are right there is no need to defend or push one's views, just a need to protect those of others.

So, God is Love and the light of God shines through us all such that we need no person, creeds or books to guide us for we experience our own redemption from within and live it externally (think I've understood this correctly).

Like other groups, the key is on the outworking and so Quakers seek to make the world a better place (not a bad goal) and engage in human rights (because all choices are valid and all people are equally valid too), social justice, environmental issues, the peace movement and above all, the freedom to act and believe as one feels is right.

Conscience is all!

They don't have the Bible, they don't have the Trinity and they don't do anything that would otherwise be considered 'sacramental'.

As a bit of a parting shot, I understand that the name 'Friends' derives from John 15:14: where Jesus says: "You are my friends if you do what I command you." 

A bit of an enigma appearing here as they are doing what someone commands and yet not believing in Him, the One who sent Him, or the third member of the Trinity!

Are they Christian?
Obviously the answer is 'No'.!

I would be amazed at the number of people who assume that the Quakers (AKA Religious Society of Friends) are Christians if it were not for the fact that I also (a long time ago) used to assume the same thing!

Listening to a couple of Quakers on the Radio a while back, it appears that they were canvassing the general public regarding what opinions might be popular for the Quakers to have and were commenting on how popular being a Quaker had been last time they updated their attitudes. All very egalitarian and as damning as it might be applause-worthy (I fear)!

UNITARIANS

Origins:Transylvania and Poland Began in:16th Century

Founder: Francis David

Membership: c. 750,000

 Bible: Although regarded as valuable the Bible is fallible and therefore not regarded as authoritative. Or as one book I read on the issue stated, "It needs to be read with a degree of reason, logic and a pinch of salt. At the end of the day the truth within it is dependent upon that which the reader wishes it to have!"

The Bible is just one of many sources, sacred or secular, which can be used in the services for no one book has the monopoly on religious truth.

 Beliefs: There is a strong belief that there is only one God but it is obvious that this means little in reality. In fact, it appears that views regarding God are such that he is a cosmic force, a convenient name given for natural (and supernatural) forces, a hindrance to any unified existence and an unnecessary encumbrance.

Don't think we even need to consider their views from a Credal or Christian trinitarian setting as there simply isn't one. Jesus ranges from a freedom fighter, a pacifistic visionary and a poet and there's many other takes on Him besides.

The bottom line is that He is neither man made God or God made man, he's merely a bloke.

The Holy Spirit, like Jesus, continues the pattern in their non-trinitarian beliefs (understandable as they don't have a first member (God) either) but fares a little better than the other two (Father and Son) as the new age 'cosmic force' or as an eastern 'spiritual force'. But, at best, He's still an 'it'. Seeing unity in all things, no matter how apparently diverse, this is a group who try to bring all things together in a way that allows for a very wide range of beliefs and doubts. All are free to believe whatever they wish in unity with others and the more diversity there is the more there is an opportunity to also find some unity.

To this end it is possible to find a degree of pluralism that many faiths are embraced and lifestyles validated. So much so that within one group it is possible to find Jews, Christians, Pagans, Atheists, Buddhist and Hindus happily co-existing.

There are no creeds or set beliefs for all, or none, are valid.

There are no ministers, for all lead themselves as they make their own journey and plot their own beliefs because, obviously, there are no exclusive or primary truths. That said, there are core values of love, respect and unity. After all, unity with all things in all things is what they're about.

Seems also that the key evidence of being a unitarian is 'making a difference'.

Their motto should be 'actions not words' as I see it and it is because of this that we see them often in caring professions and roles within society.

Basically, for a bunch who are happy to admit just about everything, they omit or deny quite a bit!

They deny just about everything that is Christian: the Trinity, Jesus' Deity, sin (just ain't there and there's no need for redemption if that's gone - so no need of Jesus).

The Bible's dodgy, flawed, fallible and equal to everything (including Viz!) and yet they still call themselves 'Christian' (which I think in this setting means 'Humane' or 'kind').

Are they Christian? I have to fall back on something Donald Guthrie once said in a lecture:

"Those who believe everything in fact find themselves believing nothing!" and it is here that the answer 'No' becomes rather obvious.

So what's the problem? The government are happy to let gatherings or groups of people to exist in the religions of their own making and let these 'churches' conduct same-sex marriages. Not only that but they wish to make it illegal for Christian churches (ie. Church of England and the Church in Wales) to conduct same.

Personally, I'm more than happy to see that upheld by law - after all it does provide a measure of security as people strive to keep the law (God's and man's).

Simples methinks :-)