No, not the one in the image. These words, a response to a previous post on the church and mental health, come from someone else:
"I am an unemployed Church of England priest. I am unemployed because 12 years ago I went through a couple of years suffering from a serious depressive illness. I was in and out of hospital and nothing the psychiatrists prescribed would shift it. Eventually I met a young occupational therapist and something clicked. Together we came up with a regime that pulled me out of the hell I was living in.
About ten years ago I was well enough to start working again. At the time I was the vicar of a two church parish, although I had been off work for over a year. I suggested to my archdeacon that I could manage one parish for a while until I was strong enough to cope with both. I was told this would not be possible. Then I was called into the bishop's office and he told me that I should retire and there was no job for me in the Church. I fought hard and he eventually gave me the post of assistant curate on a two year contract. He also insisted that I saw counsellors who reported back to him and undergo review procedures far more intrusive than what other priests had to go through.
At the end of the two years I had to fight again to keep my job. Again I was given a two year contract. At the end of that, after another fight, I was given a one year contract and at the end of that I was told there was no job for me, and I wasn't given any contract. However, I carried on working and they still paid me for another two years. Last September, the bishop finally got his way and I was dismissed.
During all those years of temporary contracts I did a perfectly fine and appreciated job and did not have a single minute off work because of illness, let alone mental distress. I have managed my depression by sticking to the regimes that were formulated with my OT and with medication.
During all those years the bishop never once considered putting me forward for a full time post. I am certain that he was convinced from the start that somebody who had suffered from mental illness could never be trusted to take on any position of responsibility. I also think he believes that all mental illness is the same and that we are all schizophrenics. He certainly does not understand that major depressive episodes are usually temporary and that even those who suffer from occasional relapses can be perfectly capable of holding down a job as well as anybody else between episodes. Basically my bishop was an ill-informed bigot.
Of course, having been subject to such prejudice for so long and held back from pursuing my vocation, all the parishes I apply to for work are suspicious of me. After 75 rejections in less than a year I gave up. This would never have happened if I had been in secular employment because my employer would have been breaking English law if he treated me in the same way as my former bishop. My bishop used the church's exemption from employment laws to get away with worse than murder - stripping me of my vocation and my reason for living.
The Church occasionally makes the right noises about mental illness but they are, in reality, a bunch of hypocrites."
'Mad Vicar'
A very sad and sobering tale, especially as one of the accusations about the Church used to be that we were 'the only army to shoot its wounded', an accusation I thought (hoped) we'd grown out of.
Please pray for this minister and the many others in the same boat.
Pax
40 comments:
I very sad story, although we are obviously only getting his side of it. I wonder how his Bishop would respond to what he wrote?
I'm assuming that there is another side and am trying to find it.
Pax
"My bishop used the church's exemption from employment laws to get away with worse than murder - stripping me of my vocation and my reason for living."
Yup, been there. It was "let go of" without due process in a way that would have been illegal in secular (real) job. So now I have the freehold and go fishing all day. Short of me doing anything very wrong they can't sack me and I don't bother trying too hard to please the bosses or jump through any hoops. :-)
Other than my comments regarding my former bishop's motivations, this is a list of facts. The only possible "other side to the story" would be if these facts are fabricated.
I initiated legal proceedings against the bishop strictly on the basis of disability discrimination. His response was to claim exemption under the law and to instruct his solicitors to defame my reputation. Although people came forward to offer to go to court on my behalf I decided that a lengthy and nasty court case, not based solely on matters of disability legislation, could be harmful to my mental health and so I withdrew the claim.
I have never been disciplined for any offence. Basically I have been the victim of constructive defrocking.
I am now an incredibly angry and bitter person who has not been to church since last May. This anger manifests itself in attacks on the church which could be claimed to be reasons for dismissal. But I would emphasise that my anger was the result of many years of putting up with prejudice and a complete lack of pastoral care or understanding.
Since last May not one member of the church has been to see me, including the local priest. Madness is embarrassing to the church and I am living proof they would rather the mad did not exist and that if they cannot disappear us they can, at least, pretend we are not there.
Have a look through this man's site. At the end of the day he probably isn't up to being an Anglican priest and that is that. Some of the stupid things he's done with rejection letters (posting them on his site and then making comments about them and their authors) only emphasises that the man is probably not able to minister to himself, let alone anyone else.
Alarm bells should ALWAYS ring when someone shoves blame 100% away from their own conduct – most of us, by our 30s, are able to lay at least a smidgeon of blame on our own conduct, for many of the problems we find ourselves facing. The fact this is not the case with Mad Vicar, perhaps suggests he is not able to make that connection. ‘It’s not my fault, it’s people’s prejudice...’ ‘I’ve done nothing wrong....’ But this is not the case with this chappy. As someone who for many years – and only until I moved out of the area – volunteered at a mental health drop-in and someone with a social work and mental health qualification (tho’ I don’t use it now) I am a strong advocate for promoting the fact that the stigma and prejudices around mental illness needs to be overcome. Yet I am also a pragmatist and sometimes you just have to realise someone’s limitations.
Alas, many Anglican clergy get saddled with far too much administrative work – yet the majority do have pastoral responsibility for people (often vulnerable people) and they are in a position of being able to preach. Given the author of this complaint appears to have so little insight into his own behaviour – its effect on others and himself – would it really be feasible to give this man a job in charge of the welfare of others?
I should also draw your attention to the ‘Paypal’ account on the site, where he invites donations to ‘support’ him (begging is the less euphemistic word) – if you read through the blog, you will find, from time to time, evidence in the comments that people are actually daft enough to do this! This raises interesting questions about the intention of the tales of woe – are they emphasised to elicit sympathy that converts to cash?
I would be wary of extending too much sympathy to this man – he seems to be his own worst enemy.. And alas, as I found out as a social worker, you can’t protect people from themselves!
Peter, I am a perfectly fine parish priest with good pastoral skills, especially when it comes to being with the sick and dying. No complaint regarding my pastoral abilities has ever been made. I am also an excellent preacher. As I said, I never took any time of sick after my return to work ten years ago.
I am now a self-supporting priest working on the internet. I run a worship site called St. Laika's which produces legal and licensed podcasts which are available from the site and via iTunes. They are downloaded by about 1200 people every week. I suggest you check out these podcasts if you wish to check out my priestly credentials.
I am happy with the term "begging." It's a noble occupation validated by such Christians (far, far, more holy than me) as Francis of Assisi and Jesus Christ.
Isn't it telling that most comments so far have been suspicious or angry in tone. If nothing else this proves that my basic accusation, that the church is naturally bigoted, is extremely close to the mark.
http://revjph.blogspot.com/2011/05/madpriest-visits-shrink_06.html
1. Not sure Jesus ever begged. If he did it isn't in the Bible. 2. I think a person who is incredibly angry probably shouldn't be in ministry - i.e. is no place to minister to others. I'm all for wounded healers but hurting people hurt people. 3. In my opinion (and experience) this priest needs to either sue the bishop/diocese OR forgive them (justice OR mercy) but bearing that grudge and being eating up with burning resentment is very very unhealthy
Christ's ministry was supported by Mary Magdalene and other women. It's in the Bible. If that wasn't begging then neither is what I do.
The church was responsible for my anger. If they feel that I should not be on the frontline until I forgive them then they should find me some other paid employment.
Hi, Peter. I just want to weigh in here as one of those "daft" people who supports MadPriest's ministry.
I am executive director of a small non-profit organization called St. John's Center for Spiritual Formation and so have a daily ministry of teaching and spiritual direction (among other pastoral-type roles). My association with MadPriest's blog and St. Laika's is one from which I draw enormous spiritual and emotional support and I give thanks to Almighty God for his ministry.
There's much more I could say but I'll leave it at that for now. I just wanted to go on the record here.
In the space between my leaving a Free Church Bible College and entering training for the ordained stipendiary ministry of the Church of England, I took the decision to "Live by faith". This was not uncommon amongst graduates from this and other such Bible Colleges, and viewed as a deeply Christian way to exercise ministry relying upon the actions of the Holy Spirit to encourage people to financially support them. In the short space of time I did this, I received gifts that allowed me to pay my bills and buy food. I suspect some commentators here would class this as "begging". If so, then it has an honourable and biblical background - and if PayPal had been around when Jesus was tramping the soil of Galilee, then I'm sure his followers would have set up a similar link. There is nothing underhand in Mad Priest asking for such support for his ministry when other more official avenues have been forcibly closed to him.
That MP might have issues to resolve is hardly the issue! (if we remove clergy with issues who shall be left?) the issue is surely one of, not just simple justice but Christian virtue and compassion. The church is not living up to it's own claims. ( for the record I'm also a supporter of MP)
I so enjoyed the Easter service as well as last Sunday's service, providing me opportunities to "attend" church when not physically able (not that far removed from the televised services on the Catholic channel), that I ponied up and began supporting MP in his effort, for wonderful services rendered. The support, where most every pound he currently receives, goes to the upkeep and fees of the blog. If he needs to use some of it one month for the light bill, I have no problem with that.
Count me as another grateful supporter of MadPriest, a minister who has found much spiritual nurture in his writing. Daft? Fine. I've been called worse things.
MP is an excellent Minister and Priest. However others view his status or slag him off. His outreach is probably wider then that of the 'established church'.
Vic has described his sadness that the church is able to hide behind exemption from discrimination laws to actively discriminate against someone why they mistakenly perceive as a liability. Shame on them.
The archive of Jonathan's blog was long since purged of the more flagrant instances of his modus operandi, but traces may be found at sites one does not normally link. For example, November 2008's "Nigger in the Woodpile" post and the "f-ck the n-ggers" business that sprang from it.
It is possible that it is no accident that Jonathan's applications for 75 livings have now been turned down.
On the bright side he trying to run a tidy little "support me or I might have to work" sideline, on an ambitious, indeed near-impertinent scale, among the faithful.
As Jonathan himself succinctly puts it in a comment to another fund-raiser "if I do not get to the £1000 target ........ I will attempt to get a part time job to make up the difference. I would prefer not to have to do this as it would reduce the time I have to spend on my online ministry and, to be honest, it would, most likely, be boring".
That he is aiming for a £2000 monthly stipend (Mr Hagger, at least, does not sell himself short) from the faithful, sooner than looking for a regular job, on account of what that job "would, most likely, be boring" says pretty-well all that needs to be said.
Mad Priest is who he is and at times he can be infuriating. He is at times stubborn and he can be counted on to be brutally honest in sharing exactly how he feels. To what end this has contributed to his difficulty in obtaining a parish, I do not know, nor do I care, except in regards to the anguish and frustration the rejections have caused him.
Should any of you care to follow the above commenter's little cyber, paper trail, you should know that that individual went from a regular commenter and member of the community to one who now seems obsessed with MP and his blog.
The thread he is referencing was at times very heated and involved cultural differences with regards to that infamous word.
One can only hope that Lapin et al. are pursuing the numerous televangelistists with as dogged a determination. Especially as they rake in a far greater amount of money than what Jonathon is collecting from his cyber friends.
I'm a supporter of Mad Priest. There are a lot worse things you can do with your money. Not that I've got money to burn, but just on that point since been a regular supporter, God has blest me financially in some extraordinary ways. Now I know you can also turn around three times and throw some salt over your shoulder and get the same result but I'm just putting it out there as a fact.
Anyway Mad Priest showed me support and encouragement and kindness years before he ever sent out his (really quite general) request for money. At the time he supported me and many others in the world wide christian blogging community he was being paid by the Church (thank you church) but now he is not and so what sort of person wouldn't want to return the favour.
P.S. I also like his quick wit, his acidic humour and his willingness to get off side with people by disputing their beliefs. He takes great risks with his tendency to speak out from what I can see. He could easily end up with no supporters at all by taking this stance especially against authority figures in the church. (Ring any bells...?). Anyway each to his own but for me I feel I am supporting a neglected part of the church in supporting Mad Priest so I have no problem with it.
Oh well, what will you have -- he provides comfort for the grieving and intellectual stimulation for the bored. Two things that every priest does. Also very good on-line liturgy. No wonder that those who can afford it support him.
"..... you should know that that individual went from a regular commenter and member of the community to one who now seems obsessed with MP and his blog."
It's called "seeing the light", Renz. The 2008 "F-ck the N-ggers" business showed me pretty-well (I already had my suspicions) what was what where Jonathan was concerned.
The following summer he went on a week-long concentrated spat against two well-respected female American priests, and against anyone who spoke in their support, in a wholly unnecessary hissy-fit springing, obscurely, from prayer requests they had posted - the one for her gravely-ill spouse; the other for a younger brother who had been diagnosed with well-advanced Alzheimer's. Out of respect for the ladies concerned I will not repost the text of the heart-rending prayer requests that attracted his ire (I have cached copies of the OCICBW threads concerning this issue) but I can fairly quote the one of them who told Jonathan, with complete accuracy, that he "has the pastoral sensitivity of a rhinoceros"
Hagger, who is, you will recall, a priest, showed not a jot of sympathy for the awful situation of either of these individuals, and instead went on a rant as to how he had been ill-used by them and by anyone who had spoken in their support. Jonathan is ever the victim, never the transgressor.
A suggestion from me that he button it and quit embarrassing himself and his readers, led to an immediate "you are not a friend" tantrum and the order to get the hell out off his blog. The door did not hit me on the way out.
As to "obsessed with MP and his blog" - I could give a damn about the blog, but I do object strongly to the ongoing, manipulative mountebankism..
"... most likely it would be boring" says all that needs to be said, as I remarked above. A six-year-old who expressed the self-indulgent sentiment that peppers the post would be reproved and corrected.
As to the "numerous televangelists" you mention, Rentz - I have no first-hand experience of them; I have plenty of Jonathan.
What Roger (Lapinbizarre) fails to mention is that my anger against Elizabeth Kaeton was due to a personal email she sent me full of effing after I moved her prayer request from one thread to my prayer list thread for the day. I posted that personal email. The subsequent arguments were all about whether or not I should have posted the email.
In any case, Elizabeth and myself made up soon afterwards and we're back to bickering with each other like brother and sister as if nothing had happened. There are always going to be blow-ups in close communities. But it is only those who enjoy hatred more than love who refuse to swallow their pride, kiss and make up.
Oh, anybody who doesn't understand my honest comment that "anything else would be boring" has never realised their true vocation in life and I feel almost as sorry for such people as I do for people who have realised their true vocation and lost it.
I was blissfully unaware of this conversation and that I had been dragged into it until Jonathan pointed it out to me.
I was not going to comment until I read this blog and others (Of Course I Could Be Right - OCICBR), and I must say, I am thoroughly appalled.
I will admit that I still harbor hurt feelings about Jonathan printing my personal note to him and all that followed, but I have forgiven him.
After a long hiatus, I have returned to reading his blog several times a week, and have discovered that Jonathan remains an intelligent, highly articulate man with keen insights, and a wicked sense of humor. He is a fine litugist which is where his pastoral sensitivities shine.
He makes me laugh. Often. Sometimes, he makes me groan. It is a gift which I appreciate - especially in these uncertain times in the world and in the communion. Yes, sometimes he crosses the line. That's part of the mystery of the divine gift of humor: the exact location of MY line is different from HIS - or YOURS.
When I think something is funny, I laugh. When I think something is not funny, I hit delete. I do the same thing when I think something is offensive.
You know. Like adults do.
I appreciate Jonathan's gift of humor more than my need to harbor ill will for an incident that is in the past. He is my brother in Christ. Jesus said we do not have to like one another - and clearly, there are things I do not like about Jonathan's behavior - but Jesus said to love one another.
I love my brother, Jonathan Hagger.
I have never met the man. I have never seen him "in action" at the parochial level. I have never heard from his parishioners and have no knowledge of how his ministry was seen or evaluated or appreciated by them. I do not know if any of them spoke to his bishop about not renewing his contract to serve them.
Neither do I know his bishop or the bishop's staff or what went into the decision to not renew his contract. I do not know any of you and I seriously doubt you have any of the above knowledge, either.
I do know this about mental illness: It embarrasses us. It especially embarrasses the church which is deeply embarrassed about clergy who struggle with depression or addiction or any other mental illness.
However, the truth is that what Jesus thinks of Jonathan or any of the lot of you is beyond my ability to discern. More to the point - it is not for me to judge.
So far as I can tell, none of you has been personally attacked by Jonathan. It seems that you are so deeply offended by his blog and his mendicant ministry and embarrassed that, even with his mental illness, he continues to write there with a wide audience, that you feel the need to attack him.
To what end? To silence him? Make him crawl into a hole and disappear so you can continue with the illusion that he and clergy and laity like him and their mental illness do not exist?
One of the definitions of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting things to change.
It is also said that refusing to forgive someone is like drinking poison and expecting the offending person to die.
Forgive. Move on with your lives. Certainly there are hungry people to feed, acolytes to train, people to visit in homes or hospital . . . oh yes . . .and people with mental illnesses to love - even when they drive us mad.
Let's get on with the work of the gospel, shall we, and edify the people of God to do the mission of the church, which, in the BCP in The Episcopal Church, anyway, is defined in our catechism in these words: ".... to restore all people to unity with God and each other in Christ" (BCP, pg. 855)
Thank you for your patience and generosity of spirit in entertaining these thoughts from someone Jonathan has long called, "The Evil Lesbian Priestess".
Bless his heart.
You know, religion is shrinking away to fewer and fewer people every year; whenever people ask why, I direct them to site like this and people like you and the Fundiegelicals, who are truly mirror images of each other.
Sorry to be so blunt-and I'm not even on that many meds s-but that's the way it is. About 2 million (and shrinking rapidly)Americans belong to the US church and about 2% belong to the English, which seems satisfied to become the Shinto of the Anglo-Saxons. Whatever. Just keep yourselves amused and leave the rest of us out of your fantasies, your politics and your economics.
Brad Evans (NIxon is Lord) is a schizophrenic troll who spends all his time "including" himself on Christian blogs with exactly the same comments over and over again. As far as I know nobody spends any of their time "including" themselves in his life.
Pray for him. His mental illness is very much harder to live with than my petty neuroses.
I think that all of MadPriest's contributors are adults. We give because we can and because he has provided us with something we need. We do not worship him. We support him because he supports us. Others have said this more eloquently than I can.
The continued concern expressed by some strikes me as false. We don't need your protection from MadPriest.
We don't need your protection from MadPriest.
Ha! Very true. However, occasionally I need protection from my readers.
S48,000 a year. "Mendicant ministry"? A new definition for the Creflo Dollars of the world. Love the euphemisn. Thanks, Elizabeth.
Erm? The monthly donations amount to £510. My monthly take home when I worked for the C. of E. was £1450.
Look, I've tried to be nice (it's not really the done thing for nutters to diss other nutters) but anybody still paying any attention to the rantings of this bitter old queen, please check out this post of mine:
http://revjph.blogspot.com/2011/04/appeal-update.html
I assume this is where Roger is getting his figures from and it will show you how dishonest he is being.
I'm used to this sort of thing. There's even a blog, that Roger hangs around, which was set up just to insult me.
http://johnhh.blogspot.com/2011/03/creepy-english-clergyman.html
This started after I blocked the administrator from my blog because he kept pretending to be a teenager and going on about masturbation.
£2,000 a month is your stated target figure. Times twelve. My £ to $ conversion rate was a tad on the generous side, but we're hardly talking St Francis here, now are we?
Do you suppose that the blog name "Bitter Old Queen" is already taken. Jonathan?
So I am being condemned for something I haven't achieved and don't have a snowflake in hell's chance of ever achieving. You must be running out of complaints about me based on reality. Thank goodness you have such an excellent imagination.
I have nothing more to say on this thread, Jonathan, having, truth to tell, said more than enough already. In the interest of the readers, not to mention yourself, you might do worse than follow suit. "A joke's a joke, but bugger a carnival", as I'm told they say in Lanchester
People will read your accusations, read other commenters replies and check out the links I have posted. They will read your admission that you have been exaggerating and they will come to the obvious conclusions. You will continue being bitter and taking every opportunity to be nasty believing that just because some people allow you to comment on their blogs they actually rate you as a decent person. But, it is just pity. I don't pity you, although I should, because you are a pain in the arse and some of your libel will be believed by other people like yourself. The jealous failures who would rather try to bring others down to their own level than reach for their own stars. Goodbye, Roger and thank you. As usual your nastiness has increased the number of visitors to my blog and you never know, I might be able to cadge some money out of them :-)
I'm late to the dance as usual but I want to say that Jonathan has ministered to me over an over again for a fewcyears now. I have no physical church that I can attend and OCICBW is my church of choice. I am working out a way to financially support MP after my bankruptcy is finalized - it's in my new budget as "religious contributions".
Roger, your position is shameful and disgusting and filled with ill will, pettiness, and hatred. Jonathan making a decnt living for his online ministry harms you how exactly?Is he perfect? No. Is he human, I'll, and subject to falling? Yes, as are we all. Pray for forgiveness! You are in a very dangerous place that I've been in myself. Seek help!
Jonathan has supported me through years of depression that took me far too close to the edge. He has helped me to retain a belief in and love for God that had left me for many years. His ministry is a brave new way to spread the gospel and I will continue to support him as long as I am able.
I'm very moved by what you say here, Brian. I identify with much of it and I agree entirely with your assessment of Jonathan's ministry as well as how you view his detractors.
OCICBW/St. Laika's is also my church of choice. I consider it my parish.
The Real Problem is that the church is seriously lacking in self-definition and out of a falsely compassionate and co-dependent position, ordains mentally ill persons in the place. Jonathan is surely a valuable human being, but reading his posts over the years only an idiot would deny that he has, tragically, been afflicted by more than one demon. The problem with his employment is that he cannot see it.
THIS is supposed to be what Christianity is all about? OMG, better that I DO stay away from it.
You know, "Anonymous", I've known far too many members of the clergy who, as aspirants to Holy Orders, passed their psychological exams with flying colors and then went on to crash and burn - getting in trouble with sexual or financial misconduct and bringing scandal to the Church as well as disgrace to their own vocations.
As I'm sure you perfectly well know, there has never even been a hint of misconduct as far as Jonathan is concerned. He was hospitalized for an illness and he is now well - and has been for quite some time. For you to suggest that he never should have been ordained in the first place is preposterous, not to mention just plain nasty in the extreme. And, of course, you don't have the ordinary integrity to sign your name.
Those interested in catching a whiff of authentic Of Course I Could Be Wrong Christian discourse may check this thread discussing a capture of Lapinbizarre's 6 May 2011 21:31 post above, which Fr Hagger reposted to OCICBW. Tracie Holladay, probably Mad Priest's least inhibited devotee, asks ”Self-rightous prig? Would that be that ignorant, sanctimonious shit Lapin, who badly needs to get his face f-cked off?”
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