Founded in: America
Founder: John Thomas, although they'd say 'Jesus' (but they would, wouldn't they?)
Membership: c. 50,000
Bible: Bible-based (appears to be KJV) which they are supposed to read using a plan (OT, once a year - NT, twice a year). It is an inerrant, God-inspired piece of work (very 2 Tim 3:16 really) as long as you accept the translation and copying errors!
Beliefs:
They are a non-trinitarian group, there is but one God, God the Father. Jesus is man, born of a woman by miraculous means but He is not God, but is the son of God! (Now there's a conundrum for you!).
The Holy Spirit (and 'it') is God's power and not being a person would make it Binitarian at best and singularly montheistic as a reality.
With regard to resurrection and the end times - Jesus comes and the kingdom of God is seen. the good guys get raised and judged and (if good enough) will live with Him. the others don't get this, they continue to be dead (as if they've never been, which we'd call annihilationism).
They hang very much on the wars, rumours of wars and other signs of the endtime (called 'the Olivet Prophecy' drawing on Matt 24 & 25; Mark 13; Luke 21) which, as they see it, having been fulfilled means Jesus will be here any minute now!
The epitome of an anti-clerical body of people and one which claims to be the 'authentic' Christian Church. It has no priests (other than Jesus) to run its churches (known as 'ecclesia' which means 'called out') but does have unpaid leaders (called 'serving brethren'). This is all very nice and sounds like a good place to be - no issues or conflict, just a nice bunch of believers.
They meet on a Sunday to break break and engage in a simple service pretty much like every church I know. Being lay led, they various members take turns at leading and doing stuff in the services. They are an exclusive group and so the services operate on a 'members only' basis to ensure that they don't become tainted by those who choose to have different beliefs! A rather isolationist stance which denies Christ's prayer that we should all be one and He and the Father are one!
Interestingly, for me anyway, the Christadelphians first became a church to help conscientious objectors have a group to which they could belong so they could escape the American Civil War. The continued eschewing of violence and their pacifistic aims means that you won't find them in the forces (or many other areas). Oddly, they do smoke, swear and engage in sex (within marriage of course). But, they can only marry other Christadelphians
They claim to take the Bible literally and refuse to swear oaths. The don't tell lies, which is probably why they don't enter politics (or vote) either!
The devil isn't a person, just someone to lump the blame for our own desires and rebellion and better still, Jesus was a sinner and had a fallen nature just like the rest of us because, after all, he was merely a man!
Are they Christian? I have to say 'No', at least not any orthodox sense of the word they're not. They can't get too far down the creed without stumbling. They deny the deity of Jesus and the person of the Holy Spirit. They see Jesus as fallen and restored, which denies the 'without sin' bit and leaves us with a fair number of issues besides. If He can't save Himself that I, for one, have no chance do I?
The teachings are wrong, the isolationism is wrong (this is a big clue regarding their cultic nature) and although they read the Bible, the image they glean from it is distorted and erroneous in that they fail to see the Christian picture and see what they have created themselves!
Lovely people (if the two I've met) were anything to go by. Bit like exclusive Brethren with some odd ideas and a TV!
76 comments:
Vic. A couple of points and caveats to add to your fairly accurate summary of Christadelphianism.
Firstly, although their breaking of bread is limited to other Christadelphians, and they may only marry another member, the exclusivity should not be over-emphasised. There is otherwise no encouragement to break family ties with non-members. And the movement holds public services (generally on Sunday evenings) which include lectures to present and explain aspects of their theology. They occasionally hold recruitment drives ("campaigns"), though these tend to be very low-key and non-aggressive - rather different from the JWs.
Your analogy with the Brethren movement (I would make them less Exclusive then you do) is not a bad one. When I used to visit my in-laws' (Open) Brethren chapel it all felt very familiar.
The pacifism and non-political stance is, of course, not unknown in more mainstream Christian movements. The Anabaptist/Mennonite churches (I don't know whether you would regard them as "mainstream")hold a similar position and for similar reasons.
Finally, although the movement may have been founded in America, its HQ is actually in Birmingham (UK). Unless things have changed significantly in the last 40 years, the movement is fairly decentralised, with the magazine being a significant "instrument of unity." The Editor of the magazine (one of the very few paid posts) therefore holds a great deal of power and influence.
Thanks for the comments - I was under the impression that they were rather isolationist when it came to Christians but still 'honoured' family ties.
I was amazed that the HQ was in the UK though, I would have assumed it to have been an American show.
I didn't realise that the public services were that often, I assumed they had specific events (like the JWs) at specific times and not as a regular thing.
I do struggle to see how these groups can claim to be Christian (unless we use a 'c' I suppose).
thanks again.
This is quite fun - finding it challenging and enjoying rethinking about previous studies.
Got a tough one on the horizon, young lady has asked about the non-scientific Christians!
Christadelphians:so higher then thou. I have had interactions with CD's, they are full on bible students, they will rettle bible verses one after another and put christians to shame. However they see christians as unbelievers, because christians have added to the bible and see them astray from the bible. They interpret John1:1-14, differantly,God had Christ on his mind, Christ was just son of God, Arian view of Godhead. They attack the trinity, because it is not in the bible. But they use the word "God manifestation" a lot, but that is not in the bible as well. They do keep to themselves, most CD's believe they will be taken to Mt.Sinai and be judged by Christ the worthy will be given eternal life and they will rule with Christ in his eathly Kingdom. I have been told by some of them that there is no resurection and salvation for those outside of CD's, however some say that is wrong. I find them fanatical and fundamentalists, They are biblically right and the rest of us are wrong. They have been predicting end of time with dates, but failed many times. Just check out trutheternal-also ex christadelphians -what they said would happen.
YOU REALLY HAVE GOT SO MUCH OF IT WRONG CONCERNING CHRISTADELPHIANS. WITH RESPECT, I SUGGEST, THAT, IF YOU MUST WRITE ABOUT THE BELIEFS OF CERTAIN RELIGIOUS GROUPS, YOU SHOULD, AT LEAST, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. WAS IT CHRISTIAN TO BE SO SARCASTIC ABOUT CHRISTADELPHIANS? I AM NOT SUGGESTING THT YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE SUBJECT, BUT YOU REALLY ARE NOT IN FULL POSSESSION OF THE FACTS. YOU HAVE MISJUDGED CHRISTADELPHIANS, AND MISINFORMED OTHERS WHO HAVE READ YOUR SITE. AND GUESS WHAT? I MANAGED TO TYPE THIS WITHOUT SWEARING OR NEEDING TO SMOKE A CIGARETTE TO CALM MYSELF DOWN AFTER READING SOME OF YOUR OUTRAGEOUS COMMENTS.
HAYLEY
Thank you Hayley - Always good to hear another point of view (even when it's that loud), I'll have a revisit of the issue at some stage.
Well done for not swearing or swearing - a positive element in all of this.
Pax
Ohhhh yes.....it really is rather amusing when other "Christians" tell everyone else what Christadelphians believe, when what is actually stated is generally a load of bunkum. If you really want to "diss the Christos", at least you could have the decency to actually find out what they really do believe rather than regurgitating the nonsense on CARM and other such websites! Why not pay a visit to one of our discussion sites (do a search for Bible Truth Discussion Forum) where you will see what we actually do believe. You will find a warm welcome, and you will be able to discusss and perhaps even challenge not only our but some of your own beliefs :)
First and foremost Andy (thanks for the comments by the way) I don't frequent CARM (in fact I had to look them up as wasn't sure whether I did or not).
I did some discussion with former members and actually did dialogue with a current member too and my views (whatever they were when I wrote it) came from that and a few books and the like - always happy to challenge my own beliefs but for now the moving typewriter key, having writ, will stay so and there are many more important fish to fry.
thanks for visiting though and as I said to HAYLEY, I'll revisit it as some stage when time and opportunity permits - so watch this space (but now before Christmas).
Thanks again for making contact - always good to know people disagree as it mean, err, people disagree with you :-)
Anything else I'll let you know in due course.
Pax
Goodness me - I can see why you dislike CARM, they don't play nice now do they? Having visited them
http://carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/christadelphianism-christian
I find this as their opening gambit:
No, Christadelphianism is not Christian. Like all cults, Christadelphianism denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity: Jesus is God, the physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. In this case, it is the deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith that are the problems with this group.
Not sure about CARM but they're der' not your friends are they?
Phew
Just read your entry and seems fair and quite balanced compared to many and you have played down the enmity between family members too. I be unhappy at what you have written if I were one but that's only to be expected as you are defo' not the best PR person they have had.
RK
Seen your request - seen your blog - seen the complaints - think you worry too much about what people think - much nicer than many with this group and my experiences is that they wouldn't be
It is correct that CD's reject the diety of Christ yet John Thomas the founder of CD's writes in his book phanerosis that Jesus: because born of the spirit therefore God, equal in power and Glory with the Father. However CD's are unitarian, they focused on end time prophesies, return of Christ and 1000 yrs of Christ rule on earth with his saints (worthy christadelphians). They have more failed end time prophesies then JW's but nothing stop's them trying to work out when Christ going to return. Andy Walton is going wild with his guesses about Syria- this could be the start, heading to Christ return. No one know the time," He will come like a thief in the night " but for CD's guessing game goes on. Many nice people trapped in a fanatical religion.
What you have written is fair and accurate. As an ex Chrissie I thank you for writing it.
Thank you for the comments - Never heard them called 'Chrissies' before :-)
Vic
Thank you for the comments - Never heard them called 'Chrissies' before :-)
Vic
I get furious when I see all the rubbish that fellow academics have written here - Christadelphians are simply correct -
Anonymous " christadelphians are correct" REALLY, how did you come to that conclusion, exclusive club is it, have you got a word from God, NO you don't it is in your head, brainwashed since childhood. There is no one special in this world, not even CD's.
Very, very sad that adverse comments come from some who have had no contact with Christadelphians, nor been to any of their public meetings. Surprising indeed from a CofE priest - you really should think carefully about what you are doing besides claiming your absolute and incontrovertible wisdom!!
Goodness me, "Absolute and incontrovertible wisdom!!" Now that's a claim I'd never make but I have to assume that what I have read and the discussion I have had thus far lead to to think that this item (which all began because people were unsure) resides quite confidently on it's own merits and seems to stand.
I have had some discussions with active and former members of the group but you are correct in assuming I haven't been to any of (what I assume is your group's) meetings - would be a waste of my time and theirs.
Thanks for the comments - glad to see someone thinks we Anglican clergy have such an elevated position.
Pax
Just to be sure I'm not doing this bunch f people a disservice I've asked some people I trust to revisit it and will await their views with interest - fun stuff or what?
Onwards and ever upwards
Having read what you have written here I feel you have been most open handed with your assessment of this group. As you say, the test is the way the creed sits with them.
Big thumbs up from me,
T
I grew up in Christadelphian house. They're misogynistic-women cover heads and not allowed to speak at main services. They're bigots toward gays, not a welcoming group to people 'of the world' Generally deny science e.g. evolution, Big Bang Take pride in taking a literal interpretation of the bible.
I am a Christadelphian.
I don't have the time to write a detailed reply now, but in summary: Parts of your article are accurate, other parts are quite wide of the mark, especially: "They see Jesus as fallen and restored, which denies the 'without sin' bit and leaves us with a fair number of issues besides." Christadelphians affirm that Jesus was without sin and do not see him as "fallen". He was however fully human as we are and had the potential to sin and was tempted in every way as we are (read Hebrews). The remarkable thing is that he did not succomb to these temptations, unlike the rest of us.
It's also worth bearing in mind that as in all religions, there is a spectrum within Christadelphians. Admittedly, I'm on the more liberal end in my views, but many of the things you refer to (especially regarding isolationism) are not my experience, although may be true in some of the stricter circles.
I can give you a more detailed response later if you are keen to know more.
James - thanks for comments.
Always happy to dialogue and not trying to demonise any group but present something balanced for some of those I know who are confused by the various groups and their claims.
'Fully man' is a valid and accurate assessment and that He did not sin is indeed something to be noted (and emulated insomuch as we can).
Crack on mate :-)
V
As a Christadelphian too I can endorse the above. Your overview is fair - the Wikipedia Page on Christadelphians will fill in any blanks. As James says the only place I winced was the statement on Jesus nature and he has tweaked that well.
As with all communities there are extremists and some fallout like our friend Scott Atheism above who is on a personal online crusade. On the whole we like to think of ourselves as a friendly bunch and we have a possibly unique worldwide fellowship where we can be welcome in homes in the most out of the way places just because we share a common faith. Unlike some of the other non-conformist groups we are free of any centralised leadership and operate autonomously plus communities where everyone has to pitch in, even in the services, bringing a huge value. On that level I think we have what a lot of Christians are looking for.
We try our best through reading the scriptures to get back to the original first century faith and practice. Of course it's not entirely possible, but it's where we are coming from on rejecting the Trinity for example, which clearly developed, in its current form at least, much later.
Thanks for giving us a look over. I hope you have indeed found it at least interesting. You are of course welcome to come and meet us anytime.
As a matter of fact I am visiting the Lichfield Christadelphians myself this Saturday to share some ideas on ISIS and Bible prophecy.
destined to keep on running this one!
Those who support them see nothing wrong in the organisation - but they would, wouldn't they?
Those who are troubled by them continue to be troubled (as they would too I guess).
As for me, I have written what I have written and, whilst willing to dialogue (not shouted at or accused), I guess that's it done.
Thanks for the comments
V
The Stockport Christadelphians disfellowhipped me for speaking out on facebook. Stuart Courtonel of the Rugby meeting has tried to close my youtube channel down they do not like me. They are full of fear fear of changes fear of the unknown a fear of new members this is due to a lack of faith on their part
The fact is the christadelphians are without LOVE thus they are not real Christians if they were I would of been refellowshipped by now. But the truth is I do not want to go back to a place were I have been abused and shouted at by an old man in his 70's. Also andy bucknall who has commented on this posted claims on facebook that I am mentally ill. Would a real Christian say these things about a person he does not know
The Bible Prophecy Channel; most Christians will assist the sick\mentally disturb or whatever but I have not heard of someone getting kicked out for not agreeing with everything that some say. After all we all read the bible and some things we understand differently then others, then there is what a certain churches accept and pass on to their congregation as the " truth " as they understand it. In general most Christianity is on the same page, but of course there is groups like JW and Christos who dispute many issues in Christianity and say that all theologians now and in the past are were\are wrong and Christianity is astray from the Bible, but they have not been appointed by God to make that decision, and they do some things that its not " Christ like ". So I think you need to leave them behind and try to find a spot for yourself that you can be with Christ and some fellowship, without much confrontation, wish you luck in God's journey, may God bless you and give you peace.
The irony is the person behind The Bible Prophecy Channel attended a Christadelphian Preaching Day at Sale in March of this year.
Confused?
I certainly am :-)
Thanks,
V
Haven't seen this blog before, I might come back to this later. But just for now, Vic you said "They meet on a Sunday to break break and engage in a simple service pretty much like every church I know." .. Vic, which one of their churches did you attend a service at? Cheers.
The person who used to run The Bible Prophecy Channel may have gone to a Christadelphian meeting but you do not show him any agape. In fact you will not even refellowship him even after he promoted your faith. He spoke out on facebook about the false doctrine at the stockport meeting which Christadelphians call clean flesh. You have all mentally abused this person for no reason
Thanks for your assessment based on what I assume is personal research- perhaps I can spread some more light on the subject? Christadelphians are very much doctrinal, trying persistently to keep the word of God in their hearts and imitate the Borean ecclesia who was commended for studying the scripture in order to discover and preserve the Truth. Of course, this also means that there is frequently differences regarding certain points of scripture, for example who the 'responsible' are. Of course we do not believe that one has to bear the title of Christadelphians in order to be saved, as I have seen many people think we do- and it will always be for God to judge our actions and faith. many of the faults pointed out apply to personal experience, and unfortunately there will always be extreme points of thought and behaviour, of which people in their very nature might not be prepared to work out using the direction of God - to be patient, discuss without anger and to not continue practices based on tradition or culture (and not the Bible) so as not to turn away their brethren. Is this not similar in many churches and also simply people? I'm Asutralia there was a division many years ago of the Old Paths, then the Logos ecclesias, who continue to be the more conservative of our brethren, and then the Shield. However, God has blessed us and with a new generation there have been many overtures of fellowship. regarding either your post or another comment, no, it is not often or regarded as wise to meet with or have a person from a different faith exhorting, as I am sure is exactly the same in most faiths. Often it is simply the best method for avoiding necessary conflict. Oh dear, I've written quite a lot! That tends to happen. Just briefly though ( haha) although you can't really stop people swearing and smoking, the bible mentions swearing as something def. to be avoided, and smoking is proven to be extremely harmful to your body, which is supposed to be a temple for God, and so is discouraged. Although I think that's common sense. Lovely to read something which isn't instantly accusing me of mindlessness, I have to say :) God Bless.
Oh also, the founder? John Thomas was a very intelligent and faithful man, however, to CD's he is not someone to be regarded more highly than another brother in Christ. In fact, until you start seriously reading published works on people's expanded thoughts on scripture, you don't even know who he is. It's just not important to being saved. Also, the statement of faith details that they accept the Bible as God-breathed and correct .excepting. errors of translation and of bias, which are corrected in study by diligently researching the original text and words, which I think should probably be the same in any scripture-based faith who wants to avoid error. I hope you've learned a lot about this faith from all these comments you're getting, I know I'm learning a lot about people.
Than you for the comments - all add to the picture and fill in some blanks too (always helpful).
I have always disliked the way that some people merely attack and denounce without either engagement or seeking the view from the other side, so yes I did do some research and was surprised at the ease with which one of the members of this grouping acknowledged that he, and those he knew, we're not orthodox with regard to creeds and other aspects of Christian faith. But it is a way he had chosen and it worked for him.
If nothing other than a bit of dialogue and a lessening of the distrust and emnity come out of our engagements then it's a win I reckon.
Thanks again,
Vic
With due respect as a fellow Christian. To the author. We have some unorthodox teachings ( when it comes to Catholics and Protestant churches.) But I disagree with some of your propositions you put forth. You say you have spoken to 2 Christadelphians. Not nearly enough to condemn them as a cult or such. I have a couple of different beliefs than them but far less than say the Catholic Church where I'd imagine the apple from their tree fell on your front porch. Jesus remember had two parents. Firstly a God fearing woman and a divine father. He was tempted in every walk as we are but was without sin. ( a true victory) Hardly as you profess someone who needed saving. God cannot be tempted by evil but Jesus was and overcame, a true saviour.
I have probably been to more denominations than you considering you've only met 2 Christadelphians.
What's wrong with being watchful as the bible instructs us of this and Tim:3 16? Is an instruction to study the bible. I haven't met a Protestant as well versed in the bible as a Christadelphian. Anyway what I'm saying is that, you've met 2 Christadelphians it indicates you haven't been to a meeting and debated with them. So rather than writing a blog condemning them take a look at yourself "daughters of the Roman Catholic Church" and ask this. Who is the harlot in Revelation? Oh and before readers think I am condeming, I believe when the bible says that God will call out the faithfull from the churches I think it's not for us to cast judgement on others.
Read about Martin Luther, did he separate Enough from Roman Catholicism? Why are there so many denominations? Are they wrong too? Are they a cult?
Readers: consider this..... is ALL your theology correct?
God bless
Far too many point to do in one sitting but as glad as I am that you have been to 'probably more denominations' than me I have to say that I am wondering where you sit as I would probably find I've been to more orthodox Christian denominations that you if you're counting Christadelphians (CDs)among those you number!
I can only say that you haven't met many evangelicals, because I know they would give any CD a run for their money and add the cherry of orthodoxy to the cake as a bonus!!
I haven't written a blog condemning, but I have (since the original post) spent time speaking to nn CD and ex-CD types and find nothing to modify my position from the conversations - Think you might have fallen off the soap box towards the end of your post.
Just a point, I was asked my views on various groups out there as something cautionary - I entered into discussion with people not to condemn anyone but to ensure that some that I knew did not stray into error and heresy - for as you say, not everyone's theology is right - the only judgment this end is a 'yes' or 'No' - and I call it as I see it. That you have your wotsits in a twist is something you need to deal with, as for me - well I'm Catholic (meaning the universal Church) but I aint no daughter dude - 100% beef this end :-)
What are there so many denominations? Simple, we have views and opinions and differ in many thin gs, why should the way we interpret Scripture and practice be any different?
Are different denominations cults? Not is they are orthodox and hold to the central tenets of Christianity.
What are you saying CD is a cult????
John Thomas, anonymous stating that he was very intelligent and faithful man, when I was attending bible lectures that CD's put on, a CD lady sitting next to me said that John Thomas was moved by " God's Spirit " to re-discover the truth that humans have lost for hundreds of years, all by himself. I was interested to look how come this one man who went to America and joined Campbell Restoration Movement, but it did not take long He did not agree with them and moved in different sects until He started his own group. Oh He wrote books and called them authentic\original. Mr. Eliot wrote the book called " Horae Apocaliptica" Mr. Thomas wrote " Eureka" which He copied at least 75% from Mr. Eliot, then Mr. Thomas wrote " Anatolia " but again He copied most of it from Mr. Granville Penn book called " The Prophecy of Ezekiel concerning Gog ". Oh yeah Mr. Thomas rubbished the Christianity, but He Himself was a crook\plagarist, He lied to his followers by writing His books as original, only to find that He was a plagarist. Like it is written by an X CD : ( further investigation convinced me that much of " Elpis Israel, Exposition of Daniel, Eureka" and practically everything else that Dr.Thomas wrote had been taken from other writer's work but not acknowledged by Him. Even most doctrinal material and the prediction that the Jews would return to Palestine WAS NOT ORIGINAL WORK. He was simply lashing out together other peoples material and publishing it as His own ideas. The man that I venerated as someone " raised up by God" to rediscover the truth, was a charlatan as any corrupt American TV evangelist in our own times.) There is more but I will leave it here, to ask the question, how one man who did not get on with many sect's, then can discover the truth all by himself, my mind boggles.
As a Christadelphian I would say we are opposite of Roman Catholics. We try to avoid traditions of men and base life on first century Christianity I.e. non political, non material centred, non Trinity man-made mystery, non military involved, no icons,no images, no forbidding to marry, no calling man on earth Father, no Priests, no baby baptism,no Saints or Mary worship just basic first century pure NT teaching. Thanks from Cardiff.
Tom - thank you for your post - all grist to the mill,
V
Tom S, as a Christadelphian, you mean: JUST PERFECT...
I'm led to remember the Profumo scandal and the words, "He would say that, wouldn't he?"
:-)
Up until AD325 and the Council of Nicaea it was considered heresy to believe in the Trinity. After that point the Trinity was taken on as the official view of the church and suddenly it was heresy to believe in Monotheism.
So, for the people of the Church who for 300 years believed in Monotheism, until the Church suddenly changed its mind, were they also a cult?
I often ask people if they believe in John 3 v 16 - it is an extremely important verse and only means anything if Jesus was mortal and could really die. If he was God and could not really die then the whole thing was a fraud. Believing that God raised his son from the dead is at the very crux of the Christian belief
Presumably if you believe John 3 v 16 then you also believe John 3 v 13? This clearly states "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man" (NIV).
You say that anyone who doesn't believe exactly what the main Church does is part of a sect. Nothing could be clearer than this statement that no one (except Christ) has gone to heaven and yet the Church preaches that all who follow God go to heaven. Which is the sect? The one that believes the words of Christ or the one that believes something else?
God is the one who decides whether we a true worshippers of Him and the Lord Jesus, not the Church. All who call on His name and believe in Him will be saved, it is not for us to make judgement on others - which is something you castigate others for doing but which you yourself are doing on this blog. I think Math 7:5 comes to mind!
Jesus also said:
John2:19 Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL BUILD IT AGAIN, he was referring that He can do it on his own.
John 2:21 Jesus was talking about his body as the temple.
So he was capable to raise himself from the grave.
:-)
Good to see some wheels keep turning: Sadly (after discussion with some current and former members) I have to say that my assessment of this group has not wavered even though my understanding of them has grown.
Good to see that there is some dialogue on it still,
V
How could Jesus raise himself from the dead if he was truly dead? Who was controlling the universe whilst he was dead or do you think the universe does not need to be controlled. Jesus said that by himself he could do nothing, he constantly said that he was subject to God, was lesser than God, that he didn't know the times and the seasons, only God did. It makes absolutely no sense at all that Jesus and God were the same person and the Bible very, very clearly states that not to be the case. Jesus will rule the Kingdom until he hands it over to God - or does he hand it over to himself? You demean the sacrifice that Jesus made for us. No wonder so many people are turning away from established religions when they teach things that make absolutely no sense - and do not tie in with what the Bible says.
My mother was a Catholic but began questionning her faith when it was pointed out to her that not once in the Bible does it use the words "Immortal Soul" - even though the church preaches this all the time. It is all made up and not in the Bible.
There are always some people in every walk of life who let others down, this is no different to some people of faith but Jesus said he came to heal the sick, not the well. For those who stand, like the Pharisee looking down on the tax collector, certain in their own infallibility then they have no need of Christ. For me, every day is a battle and I know just how much I need Christ in my life and how unworthy I am without him
Anonymous, do you believe the Bible ??? if you do you also should believe Jesus Christ and take note on what He says :
John2:18- the Jewish leaders asked Jesus, "what miracle will you work to show us why you've done this "
V19: Destroy this temple, Jesus answered, and in three days I will built it again.
(but the Jews did not understand what Jesus was talking about.)
V20:- Jews replied, it took 46 years to built this temple, what makes you think you can rebuilt it in three days ?
V21:- But Jesus was talking about himself, his own body was the temple. and what happened on the 3rd day, He was alive again.
I think you should get more advice from Christians then listening to CD twisted theology.
I do believe the Bible. Jesus said "Ask me one question and I will give you the answer"
I asked one question and you have sought to ignore that entirely. John 3 v 13 says that no one has gone to heaven - so how can you keep preaching that people do? You have sought to completely ignore that
You have also ignored that the words immortal soul are never found in the Bible and yet you continue to preach that we all have immortal souls
Many of my best friends are evangelicals. They are all waiting for the return of Christ and realise that you cannot have people resurrected to judgement - which they believe in - if they have already been judged and gone to heaven or hell. They know it doesn't make sense. If you have already been judged and go to heaven with an immortal soul - then how can you be raised to judgement when Jesus returns? The twisted theology is that that it is possible to have both - unless you discount the return of Jesus tot he earth to raise the dead - which wipes out whole portions of scripture
Who said I was a CD? I have never heard a CD use the words "God Manifestation", which you earlier suggested everyone spent their time talking about. All I have ever heard them say is that no one knows the prophecy dates (which Jesus himself said he didn't know - another proof that Jesus was not God). I think you are very, very wrong on that. Also, I have never heard them talk about everyone going to Mt Sinai. I am not sure which CD's you ever talked to but they were not like the CD's I know.
I am sorry that you somehow seem to have met some people calling themselves CD's who are as you report. I can tell you that the ones I know are heavily involved with others, do not believe they have an exclusive correctness of knowledge, nor do they believe they will be the only ones judged to be good to enter the Kingdom. God is the only judge on that
Maybe you should try meeting up with a few different CD's to the ones you say you have met, you might find a completely different view to the one you seem to have gained. They do fantastic work with helping others throughout the world and provide over 900,000 meals a year to poor and homeless children in Africa, they run orphanages, homes for the blind and lepers in India and Africa. They also run feeding and support programmes in the UK plus many other forms of charity - some in conjunction with other churches. This does not seem to tie in with the exclusive, self-obsessed, selfish people that you seem to suggest they are.
Anonymous, now I am slightly confused, is there 2 anonymous writers here, if you are the only one, then you sounded like a CD, anonymous here defended John Thomas the founder of CD's. If there is 2 anonymous people here at least make up a name for yourself so we know who we are dealing with.
I know fair bit about CD's I did study with them on their public Bible studies and lectures. Like Christians, CD's are also divided, there are groups: Logos, Old Paths, Bereans, Amended and unamended, Dawn, Shield, there might be more, not sure. Most of them believe the same way but differ in some interpretations. CD's don't believe pre existence of Christ. Do not believe that Jesus was God on earth ( as Jesus ) Holy Spirit doesn't exist anymore, it was only power of God. When we die, we go to the grave. That's roughly what I got from them.
My Christian belief is different : John 1- in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. ( Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God). CD's
say that Jesus "the Word " only existed in God's mind. Bible states that He was with God. Everything was created by Him and nothing was made without Him. The Word became human flesh, so the Word was made flesh. in John 17:5 now Father give me the glory that I had with you before the world was created. So Jesus did not existed ? Is the Bible wrong and CD's are right ? Col.2:9- for in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body. John 14:8- Philip said," Lord show us the Father, that is all we need". 9-Jesus replied: Philip I have been with you such a long time, don't you know who I am? you have seen me , you have seen the Father, don't you believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father. Isaiah 9:6-we are told about his name and He is God with us. Immanuel : God with us . Jesus was worshiped, only God can be worshiped, Jesus forgave sins, healed the sick, resurrected the dead, walked on water, turned water to wine, fed 5000 + with few loafs and fish, He said : my Father and I are one, before Abraham I am. So I believe that Jesus was God on earth in a human body. He's human body died but not his spirit, Thomas called Jesus " oh my Lord and my God" Jesus did not rebuke him for that. Christadelphians are kind and yes they do lot of good out there but don't the other churches too ?
To Anonymous, regarding Christadelphian " God Manifestation " have a look on this site ( christadelphians - additional insight ) you will find my comments on the founder John Thomas's explanation regarding that.
There are things that CD's will not talk to outsiders about, such as being judged by Christ at Mt. Sinai, you see they say "very few people in the world are privileged to hold the key of knowledge to unlock the hidden secrets of the Bible" this is from their preaching brother. Being a small sect, they say that they are God's chosen ones, but this is not spoken outside of their group, but as soon as you become one of them you will here a lot more. My family member got sucked in to this cult minded sect so I heard stuff that stays among them, this is amended group so they may differ in their beliefs slightly. I have been told that there is no salvation outside of christadelphia so I should convert, when another relative of mine passed away a CD guy approached me and said that he was sorry, but my relative will not be resurrected because this person did not die in the truth, their truth, who are they to tell me who will rise from the grave and who will not, they have not been appointed by God to make those decisions, I beg them to show me where they get this from. John Thomas did not accept the trinity, I prefer Godhead, but he said in his book of phenerosis about Jesus: " because born of the Spirit therefore God, because God is spirit, equal in glory and power with the Father "
You should read: history and mystery of christadelphians,
also google trutheternal.org
Ex Christadelphians and search out John Thomas ( warning here, they become agnostic and atheist ) but lot of information there.
regarding life after death: Ecclesiastes 12:7 the body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God. 2 Cor 5:8 ...we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. On the cross to the dying thief Jesus say's: " truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise " very strong statement here from Christ himself. Heb 11:5 by faith Enoch was taken so that he did not experience death and he was not found, because God taken him. 2 Kings 2:9-11 ...Elijah said to Elisha " tell me what I can do for you before I am taken." Elisha replied: "please let me inherit a double share of your spirit and become your successor". You have asked a difficult thing, Elijah replied " if you see me when I am taken from you then you will get your request but if not then you won't". as they were walking along and talking, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared, drawn by horses of fire. It drove between the two men separating them and Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven. Yes it is a difficult one we do struggle with this as well, some of us say "we do not know" but most accept that it is possible to be with God.
Another strong comment by Christ is in John 14:6-7-Jesus said to him " I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me " if you know me you do know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him...
You asked me about CD's failed end time prophesies:
The founder of the sect John Thomas predicted that Christ will arise to his inheritance, Kingdom of God 1866-68 also he said that Queen Victoria will lay her crown at the feet of Christ on his return to Jerusalem- big fail.
Mr. Robert Roberts who more or less took over the sect did not learn from his founders blander He also calculated that Gog, Russia will smash their way to Israel and Christ will reign on earth in 1910.-failed
Prominent South Australian CD CP Wauchope claimed that Armageddon will occur in the year 1934, Russia Germany and France will attack England, Christ would return the same year dressed in the tattered robe of a beggar and come quietly into British headquarters and the King of England would offer his crown on bended knees to Jesus. Then Christ would collect all the Jews and bring them back to Israel\Palestine. failed
Christadelphian writer HP Mansfield claimed in 1968- Present day developments in Israel, Russia and all nations can be aligned with Bible prophesy and indicate that the world lives in the very shadow of Christ's second coming- failed, but HP Mansfield had another vision in 1985-The Russian power is a notable sign of times indicating the return of Christ in power and glory.- failed
South Australian CD Roger Stokes come up in 1987- saying publicly that massive coming of nations together with Gog ( they are stuck on Russia) against Israel will devastate the Jews- another fizzer.
A.Walton CD from England forever is trying to predict the future,2012-13 was going to be the Russian invasion of Syria then Israel- not sure what to make of that as Russians are still with Assad...
in 1999 CD ecclesia advertised in local news paper that Jesus was returning then- failed
CD's still harping on about Ezekiel's Temple, it will be built they say and Christ will perform burnt offerings, my mind boggles, Hebrew 10:10- and it is by God's will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. PERIOD,FINAL ACT by Christ, it means NO MORE.
I have met some very kind CD's and some who just think that by being a CD you are that chosen one, who knows best because Christians are always wrong. CD's are over the top with Russia as Gog, yet Biblical maps show that Gog was i Lydian empire in Asia Minor, Turkey today, Mesheck is not Moscow, Tubal is not Tobolsk and so on. Obsessed with Christ second coming, Jesus said " I will come like a thief in the night" as a Christian I am not fanatical about it, be ready but do not go on guessing when it may happen. Another CD who used to preach in London's Hyde park about end time prophesy, gave up and said that: " I was a well meaning false prophet "
I am sure that some people will try to make out affairs that are developing and try to put prophecies to them. If you read Simon Sebag Montefore's account of Jerusalem (an excellent book)you will see the number of times over the years that various sects, evangelical's etc have either gone to Jerusalem expecting the return of Jesus - or taking action trying to force the return of Jesus.Prophecy was given as a comfort to Christians to know that God rules in the affairs of men - but not to be prediction. Jesus said that he himself didn't know the time of the end - only God (another confirmation that Jesus was second to God). If Jesus did not know then no one else should be trying to predict actual dates. Predicting that the Jews would return to their own land, which was preached for many years, did come about and was a huge event. What no one should have been doing is predicting the actual date of that
My middle sister is evangelical, my younger sister has no faith, my eldest sister is a CD, my father was a Baptist, my daughter-in-law is a Catholic, I believe that I am surrounded by close family who all have different faiths. You mentioned previously about lots of different variations of CD's but there are also lots of different variations of what you would regard as normal accepted Christians - but you don't point that out as being odd.
You have Baptists, Evangelical, Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostal, Luthersism, Calvinism, Anglican, Anabaptis, the list goes on and on. Jesus wasn't divided but even in the days of Paul the church was starting to divide - some say they are of Apollos, some say they are of Paul, some of Cephas. That was within 30 years of the death of Christ that the church was starting to split into 3. That was man's doing. It is still the same today throughout Christianity.
I come back to the points that I brought up previously, and which you have studiously ignored but which has been the big question mark for all of the people I come into contact with, including all my family of all faiths. If Jesus is coming back to resurrect the dead to judgement then how can people have risen and gone to heaven (or hell) already and have immortal souls.Not one person has been able to square that circle, so a lot now look at that being something they have to disagree with the standard view on
If you will come back to me with good answers on this one then I will come back with comments on your quotations of Jesus being the "Word"
i don't know who the other Anon's have been but I m now JB
JB, I do not know why you say that I have ignored your question regarding life after death, I have pointed out to you from my prospective as a Christian why I lean towards "spirit returning to God"
Eccl. 12:6-7 2Corr5:8 Heb.11:5 2Kings 2:11 Luke23:42-43 - criminal says to Jesus on the cross "remember me when you come into your Kingdom, Jesus replied :"I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise. Lot of people have had outer body experiences that something is going on at death, but I am not a theologian to be 100% correct on this I live in the hope, or else I will be in the grave until the time of judgement.
Regarding Christians, I have stated that ( like Christians CD's are also divided)
Yes Jesus lowered himself Philippians2:5-8 -you must have the same attitude that Christ had 6- though he was God, he did not think equality with God as something to cling to. 7- Instead , he gave up his divine privileges, he took the humble position of a slave and born as a human being when he appeared in a human form.
Col 1: 15-20 - (Christ is supreme)
Some people say that they know everything about God, sorry I don't, to me there is a mystery that I fully do not comprehend but am looking to improve my knowledge.
Regards to you JB, a question 4 U, so are you a Christian ? or someone who is not quite sure where he is in the spiritual world.
It is interesting to watch the conversation unfolding here.
Interesting to see the thought processes and the pieces being moved on the board and the dialogue unfolds.
Interesting as I find my intitial viewpoints as the to nature of this (assumed non-Christian) sect to be supported.
I have to say that I have bumped into a few former members and each one has spoken of such things that further add weight to the argument in terms of things teleological (and the dealing themselves - well, we are all all flawed and human, so I'll merely sign at exclusions and other actions taken against some of their (former) number.
Enjoying the conversation though - thank you for persevering.
V
Yes I am a Christian in that I believe in and I belong to Christ.I believe in all the statements in the Apostles creed, with the small exception of the reference to the Catholic church,.
This clearly states that Jesus will return to judge the dead and alive - and that the dead will be resurrected to be judged. If we are resurrected and judged then how can we have gone to heaven first immediately on our death?
The Apostles Creed clearly says that belief that Jesus rose from the dead is an integral part of it - yet there are many, many supposedly religious figures who have stated publicly that they do not believe in the resurrection. Are they Christians?
Vic Van Den Bergh states that CD's are an assumed non-Christian sect. They believe totally in Christ as the Son of God and raised from the dead and the whole basis of their belief is that Jesus was the first of those who believed in Him to be raised to eternal life. How can they not be Christians. There are many different denominations, what makes some Christians and some not - just because someone, somewhere has labelled them not to be Christians., Are JW's not Christians or Brethren (Plymouth)? Does Vic decide which are and which are not?
Doctor David Jenkins, the Bishop of Durham said that he did not believe the Bible. A survey of religious leaders found that around 30% did not believe in the resurrection. Are these Christians? I find it very difficult to understand what criteria is being used to give the label "Christians". If it is OK not to believe the Bible or not believe what is the greatest tenant of scripture - the resurrection of Jesus to eternal life - then the title of "Christian" seems to me to be totally meaningless.
So, it seems that anyone who does not believe exactly as "the church" is a sect but "the church" seems to believe different things. Should women be allowed to be priests, is homosexual behaviour acceptable to God? There seems to be a complete divide on these issues in the church - but what is scriptural instruction - and if you ignore scriptural instruction are you a Christian or are you now a sect - or something else?
Only this week, a vicar in the UK has resigned because of the away the church treats homosexuality. His view is that the Church of England will become a sect within the next 10 years because of the way they are.
The only way to live our lives is to look at the Word of God which has been given to us to follow as it is God's message to us. If we read that message with an open mind we are given some very clear instructions and some fascinating prophecy. I was staggered to be told that over 25% of the Bible is prophecy. That surely shows the importance to me of prophecy in God's message. Many, many references are made to the return of Jesus to the earth, the changes that will be made - on earth, that the future God's Kingdom - is here on earth. I have to start my beliefs in the Apostles Creed - the resurrection of the body to be judged by Jesus. I cannot accept heaven going at death.
With that being so clear to me as a distinction from "the norm" then I also have to look at other established views and I have had to start questioning many of those as well.Looking back at history pre AD 335 (Nicosia)I think my believes are much more in line with those prior to this, when the "accepted Christian beliefs changed fairly dramatically.
Jesus said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in Paradise" - and for the thief he would be. The very next thing he would have known would have been judgement day at the Kingdom - yet to take place.
JB, when Christ said to the thief " today you will be in paradise with me " He didn't say :
tomorrow- next week- next month- end off time, He clearly said TODAY.
As for CD's and other groups who reject Christ as God on earth in a human body, reject that He existed from the beginning, reject that the old and new theologians are wrong, but like CD's claim, that " they are privilege to hold the key of knowledge, and they alone hold the truth"
and are totally against mainstream christianity, they are looked upon asheretics . Problem with CD's, they had one man's view, their founder John Thomas, who by himself started this sect. There wasn't a group of people like universal catholic christians of the old time. Roman Catholic Church added to the beliefs, but protestant churches did not accept all those extras that R.C believe. Main Christianity belief is that Godhead consists of Father, son and the Holy spirit. Jesus existed from the beginning, He is the creator of all things, and He will come back because Bible tell's us that " it will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Do we go to heaven when we die, the hope is that we do, but we are very sure that our body falls a sleep and we return to earth. Do I see CD's as Christ followers, yes, but there is a lot that I cannot comprehend with their understanding of the Bible where they twist things such as " Christ only existed in God's mind". Homosexuality: Leviticus 18 it's very clear what is ok and what is not. Lev18:22-do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as if with a woman, it is detestable sin.
Can you please explain one thing to me as you seem very confident about this. If the thief was to be with Jesus actually that very day in Paradise then how did that happen because Jesus himself clearly said to his own disciples not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his Father! So Jesus wasn't in paradise for several days at least after his death - which makes it very difficult for the thief to have been with Him that day in paradise.
Just as a note - you like the word sect - so do I, it is what the original disciples were called - known as the Way - I would like to be as much like them as possible as they had been with Jesus and really understood what Jesus had said and what he was like.
JB do you believe that today's theologians are also wrong like CD's claim that all Christianity is wrong, but they know best. I think you have every right to believe what you believe, not sure what that is, as you said that you were a christian, question for you, was Jesus God on earth in a human body as " Christ " or to you he is just the son ???
Sect, is a group of people who reject majorities view, and will press that they know best.
When I was brought up the accepted view was that Jesus was God on earth in a human body but as time went on that just didn't seem to be something that fitted in with what the Bible was saying so there had to be something that fitted better.
It is very clear in the scriptures that the Jews believed that God was one person, (this is what Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Isaiah, etc, etc all believed), there is no doubt to that at all, so that would mean that Christ had to have been "created" for the time that he appeared on earth. There is only "one" God is a very clear message throughout the old testament.
So we move onto Jesus in the new testament. Three things we are told in the scriptures about God. He cannot be tempted (James 1:13), He cannot die (Ps 90:2; 1 Tim 6:16), and He cannot be seen by men (1 Tim 6:16; Ex 33:20). Jesus was tempted in all points as we are (Heb 4:15), Christ died and was in the grave for 3 days (Mt 12:40; 16:21) . He was once under the "dominion" of death (Rom 6:9) and Men saw Jesus and handled him - (many references). So there is a clear distinction between God and Christ.
Paul explains this difference very clearly in 1 Tim 2:15 "There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". He very clearly says the "man" Jesus in comparison with "the one God".
This was the belief of the disciples and all Christians until the Council of Nicea in AD 325 where the idea of Jesus and God both being the same Being was first put forward. This thinking clearly came from Greek and Roman mythology where they were used to having a god of 3 parts. Just like Christmas came from druid festivities and became part of the official Christina calendar, so too did the idea of 3 Gods in one.
My mother was a Catholic and was absolutely staggered when someone told her that the words "immortal soul" never appear anywhere in the Bible. She went back to her priest to ask him to show her where it was so that she could prove that it was there. Her priest told her that it was not for her to know what was in the Bible, so don't worry about it. As a fairly educated person that was not an answer that she accepted and so she started looking at what was really in the Bible rather than what her priest told her.
I have the same inquisitive mind. When I began to think about it, I felt that it would be a complete con if Jesus was God and so he knew that he could not really die. It had to be that Jesus was using the ultimate faith in God - just like Isaac with Jacob - that if he was to die for the sake of others - that God would raise him from the dead. It was the ultimate test of his faith. We read that his sweat was like great drops of blood, that he pleaded with God to let him not go ahead - but he would make himself subject to God's will. I really cannot get my head around what that would all be about if Jesus was God. It would have been a complete charade and personally I would feel very, very let down.
To believe that God so loved the world that he created his own son in human form and watched, probably with a very, very heavy heart, to see his Son willingly submitting to his Father to die for everyone is a completely different situation and one that I now believe to be the truth. It is a much stronger belief, not in any way demeaning to Jesus.
Jesus said "I can of my mine own self do nothing; as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father that has sent me (Jn 5:30). When someone called Him good master; Jesus replied "Why do you call me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. (Mk 10:17-18)
I could quote lots and lots of other passages that make me believe that Jesus was truly the Son of God and as such has even greater significance than a part of God in a trinity (who cannot truly be tempted, sin or die). Just as a final conviction for me is the passage from Corinthians where Paul is telling them about the resurrection of Christ, resurrection of the dead and of the final Kingdom - I really do recommend that you read and really study this with an independent mind because this clarifies everything so very, very clearly that I cannot see how any other view can be promulgated.
"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.Since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also "through a man". For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all"
This is a wonderful chapter which clearly shows Jesus being subject to God, as a true son, not part of the same divine being. How can one part of a divine being be inferior to itself? Paul is very clear and the chapter is a wonderful insight to the future kingdom here on earth.
I don't demean anyone else's beliefs, I can only say what I personally feel. I don't think that CD's think that they personally know best but if you have come to a conclusion on what you believe the Bible says then you have to stick with your own conclusions.
I remember reading about the drug thalidomide which was seen around the world as a wonder drug for women to cope with morning sickness. It was being prescribed in all the major Western countries with the exception of one - Australia. The woman who was head of the Australian health board did not believe it had been tested thoroughly enough. She was totally reviled and held up to ridicule because the drug was allowed everywhere else but the women of Australia were being denied it. As it turned out, she was the only one who was right and they had no thalidomide cases in Australia. Thinking differently to others isn't necessarily wrong - after all Jesus thought differently to all the learned scribes and pharisees
The apostles were called a sect. They too rejected the majority view , are you as scathing of them as you seem to be of anyone who expresses a different view to you?
JB- You sound so much like Christadelphian's, you say that you not, but I think you are nearly there...
I am a seeker after truth and have spent a great deal of time trying to see what God is telling us in the Bible. The more I have read, the more I have begun to understand that some of the more traditional views do not stand up to scrutiny. The minute anyone starts saying that it doesn't really matter what we believe then we have to think very carefully about that.
I have looked at a number of different churches. Actually I found some evangelical born again Christians to have the same belief about Christ being God's son - and the future Kingdom on earth. US mid-West has a number of various views with so many different churches there.
I don't like tags, I prefer to just be called a Christian - a seeker after truth
May I wish you God's blessing on your walk to the Kingdom
Well JB, at the end of the day it is your choice to believe whatever you want to believe in. I can understand that maybe in 325 AD a mistake was made, but since then theologians who have study the scripture very carefully did not change their mind that the early churches decision was wrong.
Jesus is:
Creator John 1:2-5 He existed in the beginning with God and everything was created by Him...
He was worshiped, only God is worshiped, He resurrected the dead, fed multitudes, many miracles were performed by Him. In the old testament we are told that "Emmanuel" will be with us, meaning God with us.
Jesus was God before His physical manifestation on earth, He was God in a human body among his people and he coexists with his Father in Godhead in heaven.
Father raised Jesus from the grave: Romans 10:9, John 10:17-18
Jesus raised himself from the grave: John 2:19-21
I do not believe in 2017, the theologians would continue to lie about God, so much study has been done and continues, yet just a minority of people just dispute Jesus's identity, He clearly told Philip that " you have seen me, you have seen the Father, because I am in my Father and He is in me"
May God bless you JB, for your search "the truth" that you are seeking, it is a personal one I guess.
'
Jesus is / was NOT God - he was the Son of God. Even the Catholics refer to the 'mystery' of the Trinity - it is indeed a lot more than a 'mystery' because it is simply not true. Even the most simple logic says that a person who is Immortal and Invisible (God) could not, therefore, be seen, die, raise himself from the dead. Jesus was tried and tested in the same way as all humans but he did not sin and therefore the grave could not hold him. The Christadelphians do genuinely seek to study what the Bible actually says and not rely on Priests (such as the Roam Catholic Church) to tell them what it says - "search the scriptures" the Bible says - so perhaps more people need to do that for themselves and then see just where the truth of the Bible is. A good place to start is to research just what 'souls' can do - and you will come to the inevitable conclusion that there is no such thing as an 'immortal' sould - "the soul that sinneth it shall die" - so that's a good start - it CAN and DOES sin.
I was trapped in this bunch from my birth until 40 years had passed. Looking back now, the experience resembled nothing so much as a Twilight Zone episode. Most of the "negative" comments on this site about Christadelphianism are entirely accurate statements. When you are in a cult, its doctrine is "The Truth," and everything, no matter how fubar in reality, seems sweetly reasonable.
After you leave, clarity returns. Do not go into this group without your eyes being wide open. Yes, the faith has some redeeming values; they are not enough to make a membership advisable.
I was raised Christadelphian but then travelled through the Baptist/Evangelical and have been drawn to the Catholic Church where I have been baptized confirmed and received "real" communion.
The Christadelphian theology for myself could never stand up to criticism it lacks oomph it lacks passion it lacks mystery it lacks humanity and they have converted many supernatural things into mere atoms.
They are still seeking truth, but truth was never lost that it needs to be found. They are always looking down into the pages of the Bible hoping that it will reveal itself to them, and they wrestle it continuously, but how can they unless someone guides them.
Based on the many, many decades that I spent in this group, this is a 95 percent accurate essay. My main objection is that the essay is not worded strongly enough. This group is a DANGEROUS CULT and it indeed operates on the basis of mind and behavior controls. This nutty, insular, horrifically stale and oppressive religion utterly wrecked my family and my life. It is a spiritually uninspiring and yet exclusive orthodoxy that is intolerant and arbitrarily vicious (each group is independent, and each group in many ways makes up its own rules for acceptable behavior). The only good fortune I had in this religion was the day I escaped it, and the fact that I once loved people who were prisoners in it.
ENTER WITH EXTREME CAUTION.
To Martha Kensington, I so much pray that you have found peace in your journey beyond those walls that hurt you.
I very much concur with JB's discussions on the Bible.
No one should interpret the Bible based on what others tell them it means, but it should be discovered by the individual in their studies.
I’m not baptised but I’ve grown up in a Christadelphian family, made friends from and met members from all corners of the faith and still maintain a friendly relationship with the church.
As has already been pointed out the only thing I consider outright incorrect about your description is the bit about considering Jesus a sinner or “fallen”. That honestly sounds completely antithetical to the values that anyone who calls themselves a Christadelphian would actually believe, if someone was to voice that belief they would find fellowship likely impossible to attain. Other things you mentioned like smoking, though incredibly rare (I’ve certainly known those who vape) are things I can believe you could occasionally encounter.
If I was to emphasise any part of the description it would be the decentralised nature of the group as it often seems to be the most differing trait to other denominations. The effect of being so decentralised is, from my perspective, that which ever family (usually called a clan if it’s existed for many generations and among multiple ecclesias) in a given ecclesia will dominate the internal politics of that ecclesia. If a couple of people find their social/personal values too antagonised by that dominant family then they’ll just go to a different ecclesia, or start their own, who’s members values are more agreeable to them. Great! (Almost) Everyone gets to commune with people that are of similar disposition to them, but the trafe off to this being an inevitable feedback loop that can easily polarise the Christadelphians living in a certain region. It’s always thought it ironic that even with all the Christadelphians attempts to keep secular politics out of the group, the innate human values that form those politics still effect the church to the point that some ecclesias are explicitly referred to by others as “the conservative one” or “the liberal one” with a few relatively balanced ones in between. It is not unheard of for entire ecclesias to be disfellowshiped when these conflicts have caused significant issue, but it’s exceedingly rare. For the most part, and I expect this has something to do with the group actually being British in origin, members of differing persuasions will tolerate each other and still break bread with one another.
One other thing about Christadelphians is that they have been known to quite quickly incorporate newly discovered groups of likeminded christians around the world, usually based on non trinitarian aspect of their faith. This happened at some point with a group in Germany and most recently with Christian asylum seekers arriving from Iran into the UK. As the commonly practiced form of christianity in Iran has never held trinitarian values it turned out that, other than the language gap, the beliefs were compatible enough that many were baptised into the church.
Hi Bovril,
Thank you for your comments - always helpful to garner other views and perceptions.
Pax
Ps don't know about Marmite but love Bovril you I've had to go and make a mug of it now :-)
Christadelphians look upon Christians as unbelievers, the Truth is distorted as they say, trinity is a word I also don't like, Godhead is a better word to describe God, however they are mind controllers, as they are also obsessed with end times and Christ return. Focus is middle east and Israel, and most preaching and prophesy lies around that. John Thomas writes in his book Phanerosis that: there are not 3 in the Godhead nor are there 3 in manifestation....neverthless the Father is God and Jesus is God " because born of the Spirit, because God is Spirit " I think that view now might be suppressed by the group. It's been a while since I had any discussions with them about theology, except to say that they seem to think that " they are privileged to hold the key of knowledge to unlock the hidden secrets of the Bible ". Jesus did not existed from the beginning, He wasn't God, we Christians been mislead and when we die we won't be resurected because we didn't die in the truth. Actually once a CD guy said that he thought that Jesus might have sinned, and when Jesus comes back, He will perform animal sacrifices ??? I said to him that in Hebrew's 10:10 ...the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. He told me that I didn't know the whole truth. I don't know what to make of this cult minded sect.
The Christadelphians (CDs) are a cult group. I say this after half a century of having been one. I fled when my sanity could no longer coexist with this oppressive, primitive, stale, and dehumanizing little cult. They offer no salvation, and they offer no "Truth." They offer only a living death, the opportunity not to be a full participant in your own life. In my experience, they are only charitable and loving initially -- to lure you inside -- and then most new adherents are regarded with indifference. Their "bible insights" are dreck. They regard the outside world with hostility. They support several traditional prejudices.
You need this stuff like you need a new hole in your head.
They are a trap. Go in the opposite direction, quickly and calmly but resolutely.
When in doubt -- and this cult group should produce lots of them -- vote with your feet.
Scamper away.
Magda Winthrop- I am glad that you managed to escape from this cult minded sect. I also met a guy who did come to a Christian church group to listen and try to convert them to Christo's, but by engaging with them he himself left the CD's to attend Christian church, and he also understood how wrong these people are. May the Lord be with you in your progress in life.
The article is not written strongly enough.
This is a CULT group. The arrogance, to claim "The Only Truth." The arrogance, to tell people who they can and cannot marry. The arrogance, to designate all of the rest of humanity as the background scenery for their own lives. The utter hubris of it.
Some of the CULT members responding here are engaging in extensive lies. Plenty of expulsions, shunning, and family alienation are evident in this CULT group. When I fled the CULT, I was shunned by all of my relatives, including those closest to me. Twenty years later, they still shun me.
Conformity is everything in this CULT. The application of lots of lipstick to the pig (CULT) is also par for the course.
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