I have been quite surprised by the number of emails I have received on the 'grey hair, golden boy' post. Seems that there are a few common themes cropping up regarding selection, these are:
1. An obvious feeling that younger is better,
2. An obvious bias towards those who have graduated from Oxbridge returning (quite quickly) to college (often in the same place) as ordinands,
3. Claims of bias towards one group of people (the male/female debate), and
4. Being clergy is a family business!
Regarding the first point, I am aware that there is a desire to see more 'young' ordinands and that there are many who wish to see something like 50% of a diocese's ordinands being under thirty-five. Some of the older people putting themselves forward seem to think that they are being funnelled into other forms of ministry (such as OLM where it exists and if not NSM or Reader or something else.) rather than given encouragement to pursue the calling they feel is upon them.
I was surprised that a few people had mentioned the selection of bright young things from the Oxbridge factories and asking some of those at college, it does seem that there is a fair proportion of those who went to good schools and then on to Oxbridge where they remain and return as ordinands. An argument for this is that the CofE sees these people as a good investment (because they are supposedly bright) and perhaps that good schools and Oxbridge fosters some form of faith within their young people. Then again, a former bishop once told our potty-training group that the CofE was still the greatest gentleman's club in the world - could be that little has changed and the Oxbridge cleric is the gold standard still?
It is strange that I have had comments from women telling me that it is getting harder for women to be selected! To be honest I had expected the opposite because for so long I have had to endure people wittering on about women being 'under-represented' and have heard amazingly frightening stories of people being selected to 'make up the numbers'. Perhaps the tide has turned, but if it has this is equally sad because selection should be about calling not sex (which is different from gender by the way) or colour of which college you went to (bearing in mind that you do need to be able to endure the rigours of theological education).
The 'family business' aspect really shocked me, mind you there were a few at college when I was there who were going to serve their title in the diocese of a Father, God-Father, Uncle or friend of the family and were children of bishops or other clergy! The fact that there were more than one made me laugh but I hear from a few people that in their place of study there are a few who are following in the family business of Anglican ministry. How interesting! (but we will probably never know whether this is real or realised!).
It was interesting to hear from one person that there experience was a number of people whose children had left home and so had, in order to find something to do, had gone off for ordination. I would expect there to be some calling and yet my correspondent says that being 'collared' is merely an extension of the stuff they've done - I hope this is a skewed perspective (or perhaps sour grapes) but am open to information or remedy for this one - seems odd if true and sad (for the person who feels it) if it isn't.
Pax
8 comments:
During my ordination training at college we were asked what we would do with a situation where an active member came and told us that they could not make certain meetings because they found themselves working late.
One of those who had graduated from a nearby college, worked in the church as a parish worker and then returned to college a year later (at 23) said that they would tell the person to leave at their correct time rather than stay at work outside their normal working hours.
When some of us (who were older) pointed out that this would be likely to result in them being among the first to be made redundant should any downsizing occur we were met with the comment "Oh well, I wouldn't know about that, after all I've never actually had a job!"
They were ordained and stayed in ministry for three or four years before leaving because it was too much of a drain on them!
Waste of money and waste of space and an insult to some of those who offer themselves and are rejected because the church wants bright young things!
Had very much the same thing - came to college having previously done first degree in same place - did the ordination course (and another degree) carried on with postgraduate work and having graduated served title, did associate post and then swanned off to US to be an academic.
Really got their money's worth,
N
I don't see why the "family business" aspect should be so surprising. OT priesthood was hereditary, but even though we are not talking about quite the same thing in NT and Christian terms, it would be rather surprising to me if there were not families where the example and upbringing didn't result in true vocations, whether to ordained ministry or to other forms of service. Historically, there have been several notable clerical "dynasties" both evangelical and Anglo-catholic.
Relating to this and the age question - didn't Timothy have a kind of pedigree through his mother and grand mother, and didn't Paul tell him not to let others look down on him because of his youth and "inexperience"?
I am sure we can all quote horror stories about these things, but there are, I am sure, plenty of counter-examples where things have worked out far more positively.
Revsimmy makes some good points but I get the feeling that Vic is merely highlighting what he receives and inviting the stories to illuminate the issues.
Seems that there have been no stories good, bad or neutral - perhaps this is where we come in?
Having read this rings bells with me because I went forward to a BAP and found myself with a number of people younger than me. I was asked what I could bring to the ministry at 47 and I told them calling and experience. When I found out the result they had said no and yet two much younger people who I know of were both selected around the same time.
When I asked for a reason I was told that they had a better academic record and would be in ministry for a significant period longer than I could offer 'at my age'.
I know I might just have been a lesser candidate but there is something about being cost effective in the way some are thinking about selecting.
That said I met a man who was ordained at fifty and he has been successful and a blessing to many during his fifteen plus years of ministry. This man brings a wealth of personal, family and work life experience into his ministry and it brings people to a place of being accepted and loved. Many a good sermon made by an older person - hopefully this is a positive story.
PS. I know a younger person who was a social worker who was ordained at thirty and has also been very successful. I do fear though that they are a social worker in a collar rather than a priest but there is a pastoral calling and experience to support this, they just can't preach (I am gl;ad this is anonymous).
Thank You Vicar for the opportunity to reflect.
Coming into the discernment process at 61, I received the warnings about cost of training and viable ministry being considerations for any selection panel or the Bishop. They were given to ensure that I was realistic about what I might have to offer and what the church might be able to offer in return, service as an associate minister if I complete the BAP process, recommendation and training.
But the outcome of those points seemed to clarify for me what I am being called to be. I wasn't put off and the church has invested its time in preparing me for selection and I now wait for a couple of hurdles to see If I can clear them.
My background in non-academic, military service for all of my adult life, with all that it can bring, mobility, separation, positions of responsibility and real pastoral responsibilities for soldiers and their families. Not sure that it's ideal preparation for Ordained Ministry, but God calls who he will, and so I go forward in hope.
I believe we fail God and the body of Christ that is the Church if we refuse to consider equally the call upon the lives of those who follow Christ to minister in some way. That said, we all have a baptismal calling to fulfil and very often this is what those coming forward feel, but when there are additional burdens placed on the heart of another, we do them diservice (and fail God) if we fail to help them explore and test that call.
Thank you for the comments here -provocative and encouraging in equal measure and much valued,
Vic
Totally agree with all these. Unfortunately, I have met men who have had all of these traits. I am by nature a pleaser and love giving to my partner, but have learned to back off a bit and reserve that for the man who is deserving and not selfish. When a man is really into pleasing me, it makes me want to please him even more, and it's a win-win for everyone!
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